D&D 5E Sidelining Players- the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the Poll

[GMforPowergamers]

This whole thread is turning into BULL you know what

somehow looseing my character for about a month or so (several levels of play) me not having anything to do for hours until this session ends and I can roll infront of the DM to make a new character is being compaired to being stuned for 2d4 rounds...

But if you play Snakes & Ladders enough times, you'll eventually have a situation where you go from winning to losing with a couple bad rolls.

play D&D long enough and you will spend an entire fight stunned/unconsiusss... after the fight you keep playing. In your example though you still get to play the whole time, so it's more like "Damn my fighter missed 2 saves and now has less hp then our wizard"

Where you land on the longest snake, move once onto another snake, and again down a third snake. Rolls that just take you out of the game.

wait... I don't remember something taking you off the board entirely...but even still after 20 or so minutes everyone starts again including you

That can happen in any board game. Again, like being sent to jail twice in a row early in Monopoly and missing out on six turns of property buying.

and on turn 7 you are right back in a game that a turn could be 5-10 mins, so even sitting out 6 is most likely less then an hour and that game takes hours to play so you could still play 3/4 of the game afterwords...see nothing like we are talking about

That happens in board games. You lose. You end up playing but mostly just sitting there because you're not in a position to win. You're running out the rest of the game in the hopes everyone else takes each other out and you can claim a longshot victory.

I'm not sure at all if you understand this, but you can come back from behind in all of those games, and looseing a fun game is way better than not playing a game

I say this as someone who has not played for the last two weeks in my weekly RPG game, and isn't likely to play a third time. It's a zombie apocalypse game, and the group ended up in a hospital. My character caught a tainted bullet (long story) and became infected, turning on the party, and needing to be put down. The GM already brought in a new players, so two survivors in this one building seem unlikely (it's several months into a plague). And the players are slow to explore through their surroundings.

I will say that is a bad call, there is no reason another person who is a survivor couldn't just get to the hospital...

And then there was that time I played in a Pathfinder Society game and my character died 45 minutes into the 4-hour game in the first encounter.

and you sat doing nothing for 3hrs and 15 mins...and you see nothing wrong with it???

You find ways of entertaining yourself. Doddle. Chat with people not in the spotlight. Help the DM. Pull out the smartphone and browse ENworld.

in 1998 I didn't have a smart phone, no one did. I didn't even have a real cell phone (I had an emergency bag phone) I went up stairs, asked the DMs mom if I could use the house phone and called and made other plans... I could not 'chat' with people without interrupting the game, I guess I could have doddled for several hours though...

Or, y'know, watch the game and generally hang out with friends.

sit quitly or interrupt there fun...

Given how small a percentage of the time one person is in the spotlight at the table, the difference between being dead and alive isn't a significant reduction in play (25-20% of play time down to 0%, excluding time spent making jokes and chatting).

jokes or chating gave xp penelties in this game

 

[Eltab]

If you have a Random Table involved, there is the possibility that something bad will happen and a player's character will be hors de combat for a while.

If the player has no patience, he can do other useful stuff, from kibbutzing everybody else's decisions to ordering another pizza delivery.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Why do some posts keep referring to this as punishment?

Does anyone argue that getting hit for 10 points of damage is punishment?

I can understand those that prefer different game mechanics. But the characterizations I have seen do not match the experiences I have had.

Getting hit for 10 hp isn't going to take you out of the game unless it gives you your third failed death save. Even then, you can start rolling up a new character right away. That's NOT being sidelined, in my book. But if the DM forbids you from rolling up a new character, won't give you anything else to do, and expects you to just sit there for several hours, how would you characterize that other than a punishment? It strikes me as an exceedingly elitist attitude to take, which is something D&D could do without as far as I'm concerned (we spend our free time pretending to be wizards and elves; there is zero call for elitism).

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Iry]

Is it fun to hit a snake in Snaked & Ladders?
Is it to get sent to jail repeatedly in Monopoly?
Is it fun to get set backwards to the candy cane in Candyland?
Is it fun to lose out resources because of the robber in Catan?

Please excuse the caps, but I feel like some people keep missing the point.

Land on a couple snakes? You may not win, BUT YOU ARE STILL PLAYING.
Sent backwards in Candyland? You may not win, BUT YOU ARE STILL PLAYING.
Lost some Catan resources? You may not win, BUT YOU ARE STILL PLAYING.

In Diablo, you can play Hardcore mode ("HC"), or not. In HC, if you die, you die. If you want, you can view HC as punishment. It's arguably less fun, for some people, than just continually re-spawning.

You died in Diablo HC? You have to press a few buttons to make a new character, BUT YOU ARE STILL PLAYING.

The only example that comes close is repeatedly being sent to Jail in Monopoly, and in my anecdotal experience, even when I was sent to jail four times in an hour it was still for less than 10 minutes each.

 

[Satyrn]

So ... you do realize that there have now been several conversations about this topic. You are aware that other people play differently than you do. And you are calling the way that other people enjoy playing "punishment" and "elitism."

It's certainly fair to say that you wouldn't enjoy playing the same way that others play; D&D embraces a variety of playstyles! But using pejorative terms to describe the playing of other people is unnecessarily dismissive, and is unlikely to sway people to agree with you.

You remember that this whole thread was created because people looked down upon the way GM4PG played, right?

That's the attitude Fanaelialae is calling elitist. How is not?

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Iry]

IME, selective quoting and responding in all-caps doesn't mean that the person you are responding to is missing the point. In addition, while all-caps can often be used for humorous effect, it is rarely effective when used for argumentation. YMMV.

It was meant to be humorous! But also representative of the fact that this far into the thread, it seems like there are many people who don't understand the issue. Not just disagreeing with each other, but genuinely replying in a manner that suggests they are replying to something else, instead of the subject being that is being argued.

Hopefully, Caps makes the issue more visible.

No, the analogy is not perfect, as none are. But it captures the feeling of risk/reward. Some people prefer that, and some people don't. And that's fine. NO AMOUNT OF ALL-CAPS changes that preference. And that's okay!

I am not saying that you are playing it "wrong," I am simply stating my preference, and why I have it. If that doesn't work for your table, I don't really care, because that's not my table. Keep calm, carry on, and lay off the all-caps.

I don't think it captures the nature of this debate. Nobody here or in the original thread has really complained about dying, or losing, only being put into a position where they are not being able to play the game they love for several hours. Specifically because a DM can always give you something else to do to make sure you are still playing the game in some fashion, from quickly making another character to just playing as one of the monsters or an NPC.

 

[Jester David]

I don't have time right now for a complete response, but sure, that could happen in snakes and ladders. Just like it could happen in D&D from a string of unlucky crits. But snakes and ladders is a quick game. Even if you're knocked out, you won't be waiting 4 hours while everyone else plays. Similarly, if that happened in my D&D game, I would let him roll a new character and add him in as soon as he's ready. There's no reason to make him sit around for 4 hours because "D&D is SERIOUS BUSINESS and if players aren't punished for their mistakes then they will never learn", IMO.

I have issues with that.

First, while I'm not about punishing players for "making mistakes" or overly penalizing people, if the response to death is a new character of the exact same level and gear just spawns it sure trivializes death.
"My character died? Cool! Now I can try that new warlock/paladin build without the awkwardness of low levels."
Doubly so if the replacement character is a carbon copy.

Second, it's silly in a dungeon. Why is there suddenly a person in the dungeon that hadn't been opened in centuries?
And it's always weird when the player characters meet a random person and suddenly trust them with their lives. They're super suspicious of everyone they meet ever, but rando the fighter in the dungeon is cool.

Yeah, I want to bring that player back in as soon as possible… but it needs to make some sense.

Third, what about resurrection?
If the players are going to cast raise dead that player is at the mercy of the players having the gold and stopping for a rest. The rest of the table should be required to stop adventuring and having fun to go back to town, put the story on brakes, to bring on PC back.

That's excluding situations where the character isn't dead, but isn't contributing. Like the result of being feebleminded or petrified or polymorphed into a newt.

This whole thread is turning into BULL you know what

I'll take your word for it. This is my third post in it and I only read the first page.

somehow looseing my character for about a month or so (several levels of play) me not having anything to do for hours until this session ends and I can roll infront of the DM to make a new character is being compaired to being stuned for 2d4 rounds...

"Back in the day" you also had to start at 1st level. Or ended up playing a hireling and literally be another party member's servant.
(Which is still a decent option. I always like having a helper character handy for that reason.)

Having to wait a few hours to join with a brand new character isn't much of a chore.

play D&D long enough and you will spend an entire fight stunned/unconsiusss... after the fight you keep playing. In your example though you still get to play the whole time, so it's more like "Damn my fighter missed 2 saves and now has less hp then our wizard"

So dying has to be an equivalent penalty to being stunlocked?
So you should be able to replace characters after every fight?

Why not just remove death from the game or have characters respawn like World of Warcraft? Or DragonAge: Inquisition where so long as you don't wipe, everyone just staggers to their feet at the end of the fight in unison.

wait... I don't remember something taking you off the board entirely...but even still after 20 or so minutes everyone starts again including you

Yes.
But you *can* be removed from play in Monopoly. Which can take a couple hours to play. With bad luck, you could be out of play in 30 minutes watching everyone else circling the board for 90 more minutes.

And Risk for that matter, which can run up to 8 hours.
To say nothing of a game like Twilight Imperium...

and on turn 7 you are right back in a game that a turn could be 5-10 mins, so even sitting out 6 is most likely less then an hour and that game takes hours to play so you could still play 3/4 of the game afterwords...see nothing like we are talking about

Assuming you have a five person table (including the DM) and everyone is talking the exact same amount during RP sessions (which is a stretch given the DM generally talks twice or three times as much) you verbally contribute 20% of the spoken words at the table.
And, assuming they're running more than one creature and non-hordes, the DM will likely be making twice as many rolls in combat as any other player. So you're in the spotlight of combat roughly 15% of the time.
Add a fifth player and those numbers drop.

The difference between being dead and unable to participate and being alive and participating is still a minority of the game.
And you could still conceivably offer suggestions in play. Acting as the 18 Intelligence wizard's subconscious. "If Bob the fighter were here I know just what he'd say…"

I will say that is a bad call, there is no reason another person who is a survivor couldn't just get to the hospital...

Finding just one survivor in the middle of an Alberta winter in a building without power in an area under the control of maniacs that hunt and kill people on sight was a stretch.
Two just pushes things to incredulity. Especially when the first said they were alone.

Had I made an issue of it, sure there's suddenly be a second survivor. But he and I bought thought it'd be a one session thing. The rest of the party though is taking their sweet time...

and you sat doing nothing for 3hrs and 15 mins...and you see nothing wrong with it???

Yes.
Because I'm still spending time with friends. I made a task for myself of managing the sound. I drew my webcomic. I listened and laughed with the jokes. Because my friends are funny and watching the chaos unfold at the table is always entertaining.
(And when the party got separated, the GM tasked me with running them through their little adventure.)

Hey, I spend one free evening a week watching stranger play RPGs on Critical Role. Which is people I don't know personally with a story I can never impact.
Why would I have a problem spending a similar length of time watching my friends play in a story I can impact in the future?

sit quitly or interrupt there fun...

I have never seen a table entirely focused on the game at all times and not occasionally drifting into side conversation in my twenty-five years of gaming.
(With the possible exception of GenCon convention specials where just hearing the DM is nigh-impossible and there is a hard time limit.)

jokes or chating gave xp penelties in this game

*ahem*
Your DM is penalizing you for being social during a social game for 3hrs and 15 mins...and you see nothing wrong with it???