Significance of Monsters Levels vs XP Value

[babinro]

I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but I'm curious as to what the point of the monsters level is. My current understanding of the rules are that the DM has an experience pool from which to choose the creatures for their encounter. At level one, I think this pool was 400xp to spread around any number of monsters. Going above this level would make the encounter more difficult, and below probably a little easier.

Assuming that understanding is correct...what is the point of monsters being assigned levels? For example, Zombies typically start around level 3..but have low experience...does this mean a DM should not be using them as a level 1 foe against the party?

If someone knows about this or can clear this up I'd appreciate it.

 

[Mr Jack]

Compare a minion to a solo. A minion provides 1/20th the XP of a Solo, but that doesn't make a minion of XP equal to the solo a reasonable encounter. The numbers are way off.

The levels indicate an approximate level the characters should be to face that monster (give or take 3, IIRC), while XP is the challenge that monster provides for characters of that level.

 

[Mr Jack]

To put some numbers to that, a standard level 2 gives 125xp reward, and has attacks, defences and hps suitable for facing level 2 characters.

A level 10 minion also gives 125xp reward but hits 2nd level characters with the greatest of ease, and its defences avoid most of their attacks but a random lucky roll drops it.

 

[Celebrim]

In 3rd edition you had the limitation that monsters that had a CR more than 4 above or below the party's average character level being problimatic opponents. At 4 above party CR, the monster easily overwhelmed a single character's defences so even if the monster could be defeated there was a high risk of 'unfair' death occurring. At 4 below party CR, and particularly if CR was consequently low, you were reaching the point where a character's defences likely overwhelmed the monsters attacks to the point that it presented no real threat.

For example, even though you could in theory have a EL 13 encounter with only 1st level orc warriors, in practice such an encounter was was a push over for 13th level characters not really deserving the XP it was in theory worth.

In 4th edition you have the limitation that monsters with a level more than about 5 different from the party's average character level are problimatic opponents for much the same reasons.

Even though in theory the XP might work out, if the level of the creature is more than about 5 from the party's average the encounter will be swingy in some fashion and you'd be hard pressed to craft one that was really interesting.

 

[babinro]

I see. So using the Excerpt on Zombies that was released...
The Gravehound is only a level 3 Brute worth 150xp.
The Corruption Corpse is only a level 4 Artillery worth 175XP.
The zombie minions go for 38XP each and are considered level 3.

A level 1 encounter with one Gravehound, one Corruption Corpse and 2 Zombie minions would total 401xp. Despite the XP count, this would probably be too difficult for a typically level 1 party?

If that's the case, its fine...I had just thought initially that there was more versatility. It's likely just like 3.x in the fact that you get a feel for what the party is capable of handling and then incorporate monsters accordingly. Which means stick to level 1 creatures for the most part at level one until you know what to do otherwise.

 

[babinro]

Cool, it makes sense. Thanks for the feedback Mr Jack and Celebrim.

 

[WhatGravitas]

AFAIK, your example isn't that bad, because the levels are only off by 2-3, which is acceptable.

It gets more problematic on higher levels - an extreme example:

The Legion Devil Veteran Minion is worth 350 XP - but his AC is 32, Fort 28, Reflex 27, and Will 27.

Without rolling a 20, it is impossible for the PCs to even touch that minion. And that's the main point, if you're going outside the level range too far, the PCs simply don't hit any more, whereas the monster hits very often and deals massive damage.

However, if you're keeping it within 4-5 levels, it should work out - more or less.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Teydyn]

Despite the XP count, this would probably be too difficult for a typically level 1 party?

The Level 3 Monster has only 1 higer defenses then a Level 1 monster, while a Level 10 Minion has 5 higher defenses. Your example should work out. (Just guessing here, but from what i have seen so far...)

 

[Celebrim]

I see. So using the Excerpt on Zombies that was released...
The Gravehound is only a level 3 Brute worth 150xp.
The Corruption Corpse is only a level 4 Artillery worth 175XP.
The zombie minions go for 38XP each and are considered level 3.

A level 1 encounter with one Gravehound, one Corruption Corpse and 2 Zombie minions would total 401xp. Despite the XP count, this would probably be too difficult for a typically level 1 party?

I expect to see quite significant 3.5 style challenge inflation at some point in 4e's run. In particular, its already the case that the 'average' assumed encounter of 5 creatures of party level is not actually the average encounter in published modules. It's not unusual for the average encounter for 1st level characters to involve 5 creatures of higher than party level. This means that there is some room to inflate monster challenge at a given level even before system mastery and splatbook power inflaction cause characters of given level to be more powerful than expected.

 

[Mr Jack]

A level 1 encounter with one Gravehound, one Corruption Corpse and 2 Zombie minions would total 401xp. Despite the XP count, this would probably be too difficult for a typically level 1 party?

I don't have the books, but - as I understand - that's fine because you're still quite close to the party level.