D&D 4E Simple 5e Healing that reconciles pre-4e and post-4e HP styles

[Blue]

Good points. I think things like lava should just be instant death and not even deal damage.

You could have a lethality dial where you reduce this to one death save instead of three, or any additional damage is death instead of being an auto-fail. I found the 4e model worked for me, but I wanted to get away from negative HPs because then the question becomes how negative can you get?

What kind of system would you like when you are dying? I think having negative HPs is no different than having a death save system. Its a buffer that keeps a PC alive until his allies can get to him and heal. Would you like more lethality? Or less?

I'm more of a make death rare, but make death final, kind of guy. I don't like Raise Dead or Resurrection magic at all.

Very reasonable responses.

I don't think I'm trying to adjust the knob of lethalness - in general I like the concept and am just trying to strengthen the one point I find a little weak.

Having dying be only lightly related to foe actions (no damage or any damage, not caring about amount or magnitude) means that there's little tension getting increased in the allies with a friend down outside the "we have one less active on our side". I'd like to have that plus "and we need to protect Brandar so the next time the dragon breathes it won't kill him".

You mention lava being auto-death, which I'm with. Let me pick a more mid-range option. Combat is around a a pit swarming with rats. They can do damage every round from biting you, but aren't auto-death. I'd love the reaction to be a PC jumping down and pulling him out, or other things like that. However, the result with these dying rules is that as logn as he gets cured once in a while, he can be left down for a long time (and we can already expect an at-will healing feat in 5e), and the "correct" action to rescue him might be to fireball him. He's already taken damage, he's failing the next death save no matter what, and the fireball would clear the rats.

Basically, I'd like to keep tension when someone drops by keeping that there is a strong need to actively protect fallen allies because there is a present danger that if not they could die right now. I'm not pushing for this for increased lethality, we could increase number of death saves failed to give them longer on their own, I'm looking to foster the player "oh shoot!" factor and immediate change in tactics to protect a fallen comrade.

 

[Dragonblade]

You mention lava being auto-death, which I'm with. Let me pick a more mid-range option. Combat is around a a pit swarming with rats. They can do damage every round from biting you, but aren't auto-death. I'd love the reaction to be a PC jumping down and pulling him out, or other things like that. However, the result with these dying rules is that as logn as he gets cured once in a while, he can be left down for a long time (and we can already expect an at-will healing feat in 5e), and the "correct" action to rescue him might be to fireball him. He's already taken damage, he's failing the next death save no matter what, and the fireball would clear the rats.

Ah, I see what you are saying. I would use the 4e model for death saves. Essentially, in 4e your failed death saves do not reset until after you take an extended rest (i.e. camp).

So if you fail a save, then are healed back to positive HP but then go down again, you don't get three new saves again. You only get two.

 

[Dragonblade]

You mention lava being auto-death, which I'm with. Let me pick a more mid-range option. Combat is around a a pit swarming with rats. They can do damage every round from biting you, but aren't auto-death. I'd love the reaction to be a PC jumping down and pulling him out, or other things like that. However, the result with these dying rules is that as logn as he gets cured once in a while, he can be left down for a long time (and we can already expect an at-will healing feat in 5e), and the "correct" action to rescue him might be to fireball him. He's already taken damage, he's failing the next death save no matter what, and the fireball would clear the rats.

I also agree that players shouldn't be able to metagame the mechanic such that fireballing the rats knowing it won't kill their companion is the best option. But I don't know if its possible cover every corner case with rules, nor do I think the game should. I like games that has a base rule system that you can apply common sense to extrapolate to corner cases.

Maybe have a rule that the three failed saves applies towards just dying and bleeding out. But any additional damage to a dying character requires an immediate save to avoid instantly dying from that new damage.

 

[airwalkrr]

I agree, but the problem with a simple HP system is some people will be upset at mixing warlord healing with clerical healing and having them both heal the same thing.

Or you could just nix the warlord.

 

[KarinsDad]

Historically for you?

Does a 1st level group have golf bags full of Cure Wounds Wands? Or does the 1st level group have one encounter, loses half their hps and then calls it a day?

A first level group does not have the golf bag. But, the players go out of their way to eventually acquire it (or at least as much non-spell healing as they can) pre-4E.

The first level group holes up quickly, hence the term 15 minute work day.

Clearly we play the game differently.

Maybe. Until 4E, every PC could be knocked to half hit points (and in some cases, die or go unconscious) in a single blow at first level depending on foe. How could the dice not be hot enough for the DM to half damage a first level PC quite often when the math clearly illustrates that all it takes is a successful shot, a non-wimpy foe, and above average damage (and in some cases, below average damage) on the dice? And that's with a single successful shot. In 4E, it takes 2 successful hits at first level.

4E damage = level + 8
4E hit points = 6+CON+level*4 through

4E level 1 half damage = 2 hits to bloodied
4E level 4 or 5 half damage = 3 hits for defender types, still 2 for non-defender types
4E level 20 half damage = 4 hits for defender types, still 2 for non-defender types
4E level 30 half damage = 4 hits for defender types, still 2 for non-defender types

Even in 4E, it doesn't take long for a few foes to surround any PC and take that PC to bloodied.

We were discussing being half damaged. Half damaged is super easy. Are you saying that you play one or two round encounters in any version of D&D where the combat is over right away before front line PCs can get knocked down to half hit points?

 

[Lordhawkins9]

Where is the excitement of a game where you might lose half your HPs, but you just chug a couple of potions or poke yourself with a sack full of CLW wands and you're instantly good to go anyway?.

There is none. That's my point. What's the difference between a system were you have to use resources to heal, but those resources are virtually endless, and a system were you can ge back countless hitpoints in a day by short resting?

Let me put it this way...even after you go through more than half your hitpoints, you still have some sort of resources used to get back wounds right? How common are those healing resources? If they are virtually endless, your system doesn't help anything...it makes it worse. If those resources are rare...well, THAT is the solution, not the system. Make those resources rare, and we don't need new hitpoint systems.

You still need armor.

Not if it's assumed you're taking half or more of you hitpoints every encounter. One of the many things that soured me to 4E was that even after wearing the best armor and allocating numerous feats to enhance my AC...I still got hit. A lot. That makes armor pointless.

I'm running a 1E game right now and armor makes a big difference. The tank PC's are up front getting all the attention and don't get hit often. That means they get to adventure longer through the day and when characters do take damage, they feel it.

They only have a handfull of potions and one staff of curing to go along with a Cleric. If they get badly beat in a fight, they have to decide how much of those expendable resources they really want to use.

 

[KarinsDad]

According to KD it is historically typical that characters lose half their hit points every encounter.

I said melee PCs, not every PC.


Ask 4E players. Does the Defenders with 10+ healing surges typically run out of surges first, or does the Controller with 6+ healing surges typically run out of surges first? How often are those Defenders going bloodied?

Also, how many encounters does one get out of 4E now that monster damage was adjusted? 4? 5? 6? If a groups stops the day once low on healing surges, now many average healing surges were used per encounter? A Defender with 12 surges who is down to 2 surges used up 10 surges in a 4 to 6 encounter day. That means an average of 2 surges per encounter or 75% to 100+% of his hit points. Per encounter.

I think that you will find that more people playing 4E have multiple PCs, especially melee PCs, bloodied and melee PCs bloodied more than once per encounter more than they do very few PCs bloodied. But go ahead. Take a poll.

 

[Dragonblade]

There is none. That's my point. What's the difference between a system were you have to use resources to heal, but those resources are virtually endless, and a system were you can ge back countless hitpoints in a day by short resting?

Let me put it this way...even after you go through more than half your hitpoints, you still have some sort of resources used to get back wounds right? How common are those healing resources? If they are virtually endless, your system doesn't help anything...it makes it worse. If those resources are rare...well, THAT is the solution, not the system. Make those resources rare, and we don't need new hitpoint systems.

Personally, I think camping in D&D is way too frequent. I feel its too heavily tied to not only encounter based attrition, but also to the recovery method of far too many character resources. I'd rather just keep exploring the dungeon and only camp when it makes sense from a narrative standpoint then be forced to from a resource management standpoint in most cases. But thats me.

However, I see what you are saying. In 4e, both the number of surges and dailies act as a limiter on the party forging ahead forever. For the most part, I'm providing healing without the surge limiter. So let me ask you this.

Do you like surges? I tried to stay away from them, but you could easily fit them back into my system. Everytime you heal any HP regardless of pool, it subtracts one from a daily healing limit. Which you don't have to call surges.

Or you could more creative and have some kind of fatigue check like in True 20. Everytime you heal, or more simply, after each encounter you make a fatigue check. If you fail, you are spent and simply can't heal any more until you get some sleep. If you succeed you can go on. You can set the modifier and the DC so that on average PCs can make it through 4 or 5 encounters before they start to fail.

 

[Lordhawkins9]

Personally, I think camping in D&D is way too frequent.

&

Do you like surges?.

I've been fortunate to play with a group that uses it's resources wisely and only camp when needed. No 15 minute workday for us. So, for my group, I don't think they camp too frequent, but I can see where some groups do.

Generally, their defenses and tactics are good enough to keep damage down and use few healing resources which gets them through a handful of encounters. Then the damage starts to take it's toll. Use their expendable healing, go on without full health, or camp.

For the most part, they only camp after either their 8th+ encounter or a big fight with the BBEG or some other major threat in the dungeon.

As for surges...I hated them in 4th.

My group is used to good tactics and limited healing. Surges just seemed like (near) endless healing for us.

 

[Andor]

I don't see honestly see the need to split out HP into different pools unless you are using death spiral mechanics. Even if you are using the bloodied status you only need to know that 1/2way point.

HP are abstract, damage is abstract. There is never a moment in D&D where you actually know which organ has a sword through it. Unlike rolemaster.

If you don't want non-magical healing to get people back on their feet in mid-combat then simply say "The warlords Inspiring Word cannot raise a characters HP total above 0 once they are down."

Late 3.5 did a lot of experimentation with alternate healing approaches from the dragon shamans "Regen up to 1/2" to the Crusaders "Healing through pugilation." I think there is a lot of value to be mined from this.

It's also kind of ignored that most of the tumult between the earlier editions and the 4e stuff lies in the fluff, not the mechanics.

For example if you replaced non-magical with "Herb Lore, your characters knowledge of healing herbs allows him to make potions and poultices in his down time. These can restore (5e appropriate number) of hit point when applied in combat or twice that when used in combination with the chiurgeon skill outside of combat. However they can only be used X times per day before the herbs can cause toxic overdoses." Then you would have seen far fewer gripes.

Likewise you can, depending on the world and genre, fluff a warriors in-combat healing as boons from the god of war, or battle meditations, or chakra manipulation. Only holy boons are suitable in the oldest of old school approaches to world building, but herb lore always passes the sniff test.