Simple cleric changes.

[StreamOfTheSky]

But I really, really don't like what I called in the original post the "buff and bash" cleric. It should be received wisdom by this point that, given a round or two to prepare, a mid-to-high-level cleric can imbue herself with combat abilities that match or even exceed those comparably experienced fighters or barbarians. All of this has to do with the three spells I pick out in the original post: the first-level spell that gives the cleric massive, and readily stackable, bonuses to attack and damage; the fourth-level spell that gives her a fighter-grade base attack bonus and helpful ability bonuses; and the fifth-level spell that gives her added size and powerful DR. Eliminating these spells doesn't cripple the cleric, who still has lots of very useful buffs -- think of shield of faith, prayer, or bull's strength -- but it means that she is not going to be upstaging the party fighter. Clerics, even without heavy armor, can still play their traditional role as defensive, supporting melee participants.

You make good points, and I understand that you don't like the "buff and bash" cleric. But I contest your statement about a prepared cleric beating up a fighter in combat. You're correct, but... a wizard can just as easily. The difference is, the wizard doesn't litterally "bash", he just uses fly, invisibility, blink, tenser's transformation, shapechange/polymorph, ethereal jaunt, force cage, fire shield, etc... in some horrible combination. Same basic end result.

Is eliminating these three spells, and immediate access to heavy armor (note that IMC nobody gets heavy armor for free, though fighters and paladins get easier ways to access it), enough to justify increasing the cleric's skill points? I think so. It probably, in an objective sense, gives the cleric more than she had earlier, but what the cleric gets is largely orthogonal to her traditional concern with helping her party succeed in combat. In effect, my rule trades one option for the cleric -- the ability to temporarily become a combat monster -- for another -- the ability to better become (as Nyeshet) puts it, a "sage with people skills."

If no one gets heavy armor prof. for free, then denying the clerics is certainly fair. Not having it isn't even so bad. Just stick to breastplate until you can afford mithral fullplate. As far as the trade of the spells for skills itself, it'll depend on the player. I'd see it as a raw deal because I don't see much use in knowledge: local, and high wisdom and spells like discern lies and zone of truth make ranks in sense motive less worth the expenditure to a cleric. If the cleric's really a people person, how about: 4 + int skill points and the following skills added to his list: bluff, intimidate, sense motive, and (possibly) gather information. i might even give him knowledge: nobility and royalty, as religion and rulership are so often intertwined in both actual medieval times and medieval fantasy. keep in mind, if you look at a class that gets 2 + skills points versus a 4 +, the lists usually have more than 2 skills difference, so adding 4 extra isn't necessarily out of line. The cleric's still limited by his skill points how many skills he actually has.

 

[Nyaricus]

I guess it's just how we view clerics differently, and that's cool. The kind of priest I see when I look over the original post changes to the class is the.. little cultist priest, scurrying around in his robes with a dagger ready to sacrifice a virgin to soothe his Dark God.

I play (and usually see) clerics played along with the type of deity they have. Using Forgotten Realms for example (yes, I know, people don't like FR..) A cleric of Mystra would likely be multi-classed as a wizard and not wearing armor. A Battle-Priest of Tempus would be in Full Plate and weilding a Battle-Axe. A Cleric of Lathander may also be found in heavy armor, due to his God's hatred of undead (thus expecting him to go on an Undead-slaughtering spree). A cleric of Malar would probably be wearing hide armor or none at all, while a cleric of Mielikki would likely be multi-classed Ranger as well, so he's also wearing light armor.

If, in your own campaign, you'd want to take the "Battle-Priest" version out then I'd say more power to ya. If my DM came to me and made such a proclaimation, I (and the other guys) would just find something more interesting to play.

i agree with you - i can completely see why the cleric class was upped the way it was for 3e, i just think i was taken too far. The Wizard and Sorcerer classes are still both playable with d4's for HP and bad BAB - i simply don't see the reasoning behind why the cleric couldn't be brought down to that level (i should clarify, i don't mean "brought down" so much as re-focused - please read with an open mind).

As for FR, i really like that campign setting - for a fun, i'd call it "cartoony" sorta campaign. Infact, I am DMing one right now in Damara. My own cmapaign setting owns much more to Tolkien and real-world themes than "high-fanatsy", "high magic" cartoony settings (infact, little at all). I just wanted a break from a more serious, lower magic, gritty-er campaign that i had been running. My campigns clerics are a Priest class, but i don't have them fleshed out right now - so i was using the core cleric and just called them "priests". I didn't like that, but hey, no-one got hurt . Anyways, i realise that multi-classing into a religions favoured class (like fighter for Tempus, etc) will only do good for a cleric for fleshing him out for his place in his religion, but i think the cleric as is has too much going for him as a stand-alone class. Re-adjustments are appropriate IMO; just know that i can appreciate your opinions as well

 

[quetzyl]

Spontaneous Cleric

I have been using the spontaneous cleric from UA in my game, with 1 less spell known at each level, automatically knowing their domain spells and no spontaneous healing, and I have found that it both reduces the cleric's overall power and makes them much more thematically tied to their god, as they only know a small selection of spells plus their domains. It they want to play a powerful warrior cleric they can, but they won't be able to do everything.

Cheers,
quetzyl

 

[comrade raoul]

Even from a role-playing perspective, look at the cleric. He's an armored priest with a direct connection to his god. Does that deserve to be a little overpowering? Yes, I'd think so.

Look at the wizard. After years of dedicated study, he's mastered eldritch secrets that lesser minds can't even dream about. Look at the fighter. He's a master of a broad range of weapons and armor, who can quickly learn any fighting style he puts his mind to. Look at the rogue. He's clever, quick, and can slice yer throat soon's lookatcha. Let's not think clerics are any more "special." (And your FR examples are easily handled by multiclassing.)

Otherwise, taking away the spells that can let a cleric shine and turning them back into heal-bots can assure that a lot of people will just stay away from playing a cleric.

Look at my second post. You don't have to worry about clerics regressing into heal-bots, and they can still use their wide range of existing buff spells to fight pretty damn well.

You make good points, and I understand that you don't like the "buff and bash" cleric. But I contest your statement about a prepared cleric beating up a fighter in combat. You're correct, but... a wizard can just as easily. The difference is, the wizard doesn't litterally "bash", he just uses fly, invisibility, blink, tenser's transformation, shapechange/polymorph, ethereal jaunt, force cage, fire shield, etc... in some horrible combination. Same basic end result.

I guess, but note that Transformation is a higher-level spell than either of those, and it has very significant drawbacks (the material component is pretty expensive, and not being able to cast spells is pretty significant). I've never seen any wizard who can self-buff themselves to combat-monster-hood with the easy and efficiency of a cleric, and insofar as a wizard can, she does it by cleverly arranging her spells, not by throwing down her three major standbys.

 

[Nyaricus]

I have been using the spontaneous cleric from UA in my game, with 1 less spell known at each level, automatically knowing their domain spells and no spontaneous healing, and I have found that it both reduces the cleric's overall power and makes them much more thematically tied to their god, as they only know a small selection of spells plus their domains. It they want to play a powerful warrior cleric they can, but they won't be able to do everything.

Cheers,
quetzyl

hey, nice idea!! i might ponder a bit more on gettign rid of spontaneous healing/inflicting and spontaneous casting (which i think makes more sense than the current cleric).

Thanks for the ideas