Simpler AoOs

[Rechan]

I hope that with 4e's focus on "Streamlining" combat and making it faster, they will shorten the list of "What causes an AoO" and other AoO related things.

One thing that irks me to no end are AoO chains. The explanation for Attacks of Opportunity is "You're doing something that leaves you open to attack." Actually, the SRD's explanation is "Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle." Running past someone - not really defended, so they get a free smack. Trying to bear-hug someone, leaving yourself open for attack.

However, if your opponent spends their AoO to do something that invokes an AoO, YOU now get an AoO on them. But if you have this big gaping hole in your defense they're exploiting (them getting that extra attack), YOU shouldn't be able to counter-AoO, because you're busy doing this thing that leaves you so open.

Let me use this example:

Two unarmed characters in a brawl. Neither have Imp Unarmed Strike.

Character 1 throws a punch. This incurs an AoO.
Character 2 uses his AoO to throw a punch. This incurs an AoO.
Character 1 uses HIS AoO to throw a second punch!
Character 2 has used his AoO this round, so he can't get a second one on A unless B has Combat Reflexes.

So that's three separate counter attacks just on 1's turn.

What this looks like to me is not a back alley brawl, but a flailing slapfight.

Same situation, but character 1 is using Bullrush, character 2 attempts to Trip 1 for his AoO. This incurs an AoO for 1 to attack him WHILE HE'S BULLRUSHING. So somehow in the middle of pile driving the guy, he stops to stab him.

It's just really cumbersome and silly.

 

[Li Shenron]

On one hand they said they are indeed shortening the list of what causes AoO. This is a minor improvement to speed however. Unless the list is really so short that you can remember it without looking at a table (e.g. "Casting, shooting from point blank, and moving out of a threatened square"), we are still going to need to look-up that table sometimes I guess.

On the other hand, the previews have mentioned monsters and characters do more things than before as reactions, which is certainly going to complicate and slow combat a little bit. And if "reactions" doesn't mean AoOs but means also something new, then it's another complication.

 

[HeinorNY]

Character 1 throws a punch. This incurs an AoO.
Character 2 uses his AoO to throw a punch. This incurs an AoO.
Character 1 uses HIS AoO to throw a second punch!
Character 2 has used his AoO this round, so he can't get a second one on A unless B has Combat Reflexes.

Characters are unarmed, they are not threatening any squares, so no AoOs here.
I'm not sure, but IIRC AoO attacks do not provoke AoOs.

 

[Rechan]

Characters are unarmed, they are not threatening any squares, so no AoOs here.

That one's iffy. I've never heard that.

I'm not sure, but IIRC AoO attacks do not provoke AoOs.

Don't see that in the SRD.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That one's iffy. I've never heard that.

There's nothing iffy about that. If you don't threaten an area, you don't get to use AoOs. The punching example doesn't work.

 

[billd91]

The easiest solution to the AoO sparking an other AoO is to prevent the original acting character from taking an AoO during the action he's engaged in that's provoking the first AoO.

In other words, PC1 tries to disarm the bugbear without having improved disarm. That provokes and AoO. Bugbear takes the AoO by trying to kick PC1. That's an unarmed attack and provokes an AoO. Because PC1 is already busy on the disarm, he should be unable to take an AoO.
If the bugbear does something that provokes and AoO and there's another eligible character threatening the bugbear, say PC2, then PC2 should be able to take the AoO normally. But it should take another character to interrupt someone interrupting the initial character action.

Something of that nature, I think, should be incorporated into the AoO rules to simplify the issue.

 

[wgreen]

That one's iffy. I've never heard that.

Don't see that in the SRD.

Look more closely.

If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

-Will

 

[mcrow]

I'd rather they took them out all together, but I highly doubt thats going to happen.

I think then it should be simplified to: you only trigger an AoO when you pass through a threatened square without stoping." or something like that. Having so many things that trigger AoO is what make the rule suck as it is now.

 

[Lackhand]

The punching example still works if everyone's holding a longsword in their off-hands (not attacking with it, though!), right?

Because then they threaten, and there's nothing that says the AoO has to be with the weapon you're holding? (this is why you can trip on an AoO, right? Maybe? )

 

[Blue Sky]

I'm thinking that they'll go something like Iron Heroes, where the rules for provoking are:

1. Moving more than a quarter of your speed in a round.
or
2. Performing a full round action that's not an attack.

There may be one more qualifier, but I'm not sure.