Simpler Treasure System with (mostly) Random Loot

[eamon]

The problem is that I'm referring to things like Wavestrider Boots... which are certainly a worthwhile item to have around, but if you're 1st level looking for a good +1 weapon are totally not worth keeping around. So you'd sell 'em and pick up your new weapon.

It's even worse for Everlasting Provisions, Instant Campsite, Flag of Ale Procurement and other similar items that add a lot of flavor to a game and should be fun to get, but are effectively not worth keeping.

The problem may, I suppose, be that utility and fiddly items are too expensive in the system, but either way I think your system kicks a lot of them to the curb, so I'd want a way around that. Hrmmhrmm.

Well, you know - if you're 1st level, sure, then a +1 weapon is pretty much the best of the best. But once you have that +1 weapon, then it's worthwhile filling other slots.

I assume most people will have the crucial slots filled as early as they can (or deem them necessary - you might easily do without a neck slot, early on). But as soon as they do, they'd want to spread out.

So this problem is really a 1st, maybe 2nd level only problem. And even then, if the item looks like an item they might want to keep, they'll certainly be loath to sell it (wasting time and 50% of the value in the process) if they expect to find or be able to buy a +1 weapon soon later.

The system expects you to sell 50-75% of the items. But I expect those many of those will be things like, say, a Rod of Reaving in a group without a warlock, or whatever. You're still wasting a lot of money by selling something you might use if you can sell stuff you really don't need.

Right now, nobody even puts and instant campsite on their wishlist, and if the DM gives you one (daily wondrous item!) before giving you a +1 weapon, well, he's screwing you.

Part of the fun in previous editions was finding (or handing out) items with interesting properties: the trick is; can we use this, how can we use this, and is it worth it? That was actually much harder to do in 3e, though, because item power varied so wildly. In 4e, that's relatively easy. You can now easily hand em a bunch of items that are tangentially useful, but where it won't be easy to sell em and get some massively more powerful item instead. If you already have the few key items, when is it worth sellling something that's not optimally suited to you? Its not that easy, since money isn't something you can do much with. Even if you try to save up, you're not getting the next iteration of the "big three" much earlier, prices rise too quickly for that.

With the new system, you can do this: you can give items that are attractive both to sell, but also attractive to keep. I mean, if that 1st level party holds out a little bit longer, maybe they'll find a crown of leaves and decide that selling that nets them 3.6 +1 weapons, and decide to keep the instant campsite instead.

How would you value that kind of treasure in the old system? Do you let the instant campsite count as a full parcel (doing so is certainly not in the spirit of the DMG wealth rules and your party will end up with less wealth than expected). Or do you discount it somehow? A problem is that PC's really want somewhat up to date "big three" items. If you hand out parcels, that means you need to carefully select enough of those (but also not too many) so that players can keep up. Now, maybe they'll sell an item or two - but you don't need to worry about it. And let's be frank, handing out Yet Another +2 sword is pretty boring. Frankly, I think I'd only fuzzily recollect the less flashy items the PC's have - armors, neck slots - but you do need to take into account proficiencies and whatnot when selecting items. Handing out leather armors to a guy with hide proficiency isn't good. Nor is handing out a neck slot with a neat - but ultimately useless - daily power if it's high level.

So, that's my inspiration here. You hand out about 10% that's stuff that's good enough that PC would have bought it themselves (though typically of a level that they can't afford to do so). That doesn't imbalance the wealth, and it's rare enough to actually make a memorable impact. The rest can be good enough to at least consider keeping - stuff like the instant campsite might be here, but where the trade-off is tricky; the full price is definitely not worth it, but is it worth selling? (I expect them to keep 25-50% of all items).

 

[keterys]

Well, you know - if you're 1st level, sure, then a +1 weapon is pretty much the best of the best. But once you have that +1 weapon, then it's worthwhile filling other slots.

And then you're working on a +2... and you're filling those slots with the best possible options, like for Boots that's Adept Charging, Acrobat, Swordsman, Freedom of Movement, etc. The more efficient you make selling the items, the more customizable you make the loot. Which is a feature in some cases, but it marginalizes the wacky/weird stuff.

So this problem is really a 1st, maybe 2nd level only problem.

Nope, applies across all levels, until your character has every slot filled and every magic item at +6, or until the value of the item is so low it's not worth selling (such as when you have a 10 level gap in treasure)

And even then, if the item looks like an item they might want to keep, they'll certainly be loath to sell it (wasting time and 50% of the value in the process) if they expect to find or be able to buy a +1 weapon soon later.

They money can always go towards something else, +1 was just the example.

Right now, nobody even puts and instant campsite on their wishlist,

Of course no one puts it on a wishlist. Wishlists are exclusively for the maximally effective and/or awesome items, most of the time. Also marginalizing the wacky and weird. Trivia: Wishlists aren't even used by the guy at WotC who wrote them

and if the DM gives you one (daily wondrous item!) before giving you a +1 weapon, well, he's screwing you.

Eh, not if the giving doesn't change when you get your +1 weapon. Frankly, that touches on a level of entitlement that is contentious, but I've seen many low level modules that gave out Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Wavestrider Boots, Instant Campsite, Apprentice Gloves, etc... as well as weapons and armor and necks, and such, to be sure, but there was a mixture of treasure types all the same.

Now, technically the DM could get around it by literally assuming the instant campsite or ale item would just be sold and just count its value as 20% from the get go, sorta as if it were just a variant of gem or artwork. That's probably the most fair, for those using treasure parcels and wishlists.

If you already have the few key items, when is it worth sellling something that's not optimally suited to you? Its not that easy, since money isn't something you can do much with. Even if you try to save up, you're not getting the next iteration of the "big three" much earlier, prices rise too quickly for that.

400-500g from selling one of the level 4 or 5 mostly flavor items I mentioned is a notable amount of gold, even when you're 6th - 10th. Even at 11th-15th it's actually still probably worth selling, but at least there the 10 level gap is enough to not worry too much about it.

With the new system, you can do this: you can give items that are attractive both to sell, but also attractive to keep. I mean, if that 1st level party holds out a little bit longer, maybe they'll find a crown of leaves and decide that selling that nets them 3.6 +1 weapons, and decide to keep the instant campsite instead.

Or sell the crown of leaves and instant campsite both and buy a +2...

So, that's my inspiration here. You hand out about 10% that's stuff that's good enough that PC would have bought it themselves (though typically of a level that they can't afford to do so). That doesn't imbalance the wealth, and it's rare enough to actually make a memorable impact. The rest can be good enough to at least consider keeping - stuff like the instant campsite might be here, but where the trade-off is tricky; the full price is definitely not worth it, but is it worth selling? (I expect them to keep 25-50% of all items).

Depends on how good the party is at planning. The more they know what items the way, the more they'll sell and buy new stuff. And, of course, eventually almost 100% of the loot will be sold - but the x5 per 5 rule lets that mostly work. Sure, they've more coin than you're expecting, but not more than 20% more, which is like a level.

Anyhow, for clarity, your system is great for simplicity and getting the job done. I just wish I saw a solution to the problem I've brought up other than revaluing the items in question.

 

[eamon]

400-500g from selling one of the level 4 or 5 mostly flavor items I mentioned is a notable amount of gold, even when you're 6th - 10th. Even at 11th-15th it's actually still probably worth selling, but at least there the 10 level gap is enough to not worry too much about it.

But 400-500gp is just 10% of a level 9-10 item. If you're doing this, you'll need to sell a lot of stuff around levels 6-10 just to get a single level-appropriate weapon. Because prices rise by a factor 5 every 5 levels, it'll never be particularly easy to "buy your way up" at the cost of low level items. In fact, right now, I see the reverse: people try getting low-level items that stay useful throughout the levels because of the extreme price rises. In any case, this is flavor thing that'll depend on the group anyhow. Balance-wise, you can't get a big head start; the system presumes you resell at most 1 item each level and 50-75% of new stuff. If you do that and you hardly use any rituals or have other expenditures, you break even with the new character creation rules. If you resell more often, you'll fall behind. If you resell less frequently, your wealth will be higher - but of course less tailored to your character.

Or sell the crown of leaves and instant campsite both and buy a +2...

Sure; but then you're investing a very large chunk of your cash in one item for one player, for the same price you could have gotten everyone in the party a +1 weapon... which is probably much better. And once you do, getting the +2 isn't such a huge advantage anymore; just +1 more. Is it worth selling so many general use items just to get one player an additional +1? That's a tradeoff each party will need to make. And as a DM, you can now give em items that make that tradeoff hard. If they always sell, give em more attractive stuff; if they never sell, some more wacky things - all without major balance issues (unlike the RAW rules where that selling vs. not selling is quite swingy and the presumption is that players get useful items).

Anyhow, for clarity, your system is great for simplicity and getting the job done. I just wish I saw a solution to the problem I've brought up other than revaluing the items in question.

I think it's fundamentally impossible. Part of the reason RAW works poorly if the DM hands out wacky items is that the actual wealth starts diverging quite a bit if players sell (or more insidiously, if they don't sell but actually don't get value corresponding to the wealth.) If I ever get around to trying this idea in an at least somewhat longer campaign, I'll post my own experiences ;-). So far, it's still just theoretical!

Thanks for the comments, BTW!

Edit: I forgot to point you to CapnZapp's alternative suggestion whereby instead of changing sale prices and raising found loot by a level, you just distribute 5 times as many items (but randomly, of course). If you do that, you weird items will probably be way more common ;-). I do expect you may want to distribute a little less than a full factor 5 more, but 4e scaling system is pretty robust to small differences so it might not matter much.

Edit2: updated OP with your note and CapnZapp's variant of randomized items. Incidentally, keterys, if you do decide on how to run wealth+items in those new campaigns, I'd be curious to hear what you choose to do and how it turns out...

 

[Starfox]

I've been using a crippled model (100% sell AND purchase price, essentially magic = gold) more from laziness than anything else - I could not be bothered to pick loot according to wishlists. I find this system VERY interesting, and that someone has done the match and found such a simple solution is encouraging. As it happens, I think this solution also solves a few problems that I've had in my game.

Uniformity in Item Level
In a system where you bye all magic items with gold straight off, players tend to have an upper limit on what they will spend on an item. In my game, that is usually character level +1. Anything above that is just too expensive. With this system, where have the option to retain items found at 50% cost, there is an actual incentive to use the high-level items you find if they make sense.

Favorite Items over Level
Not sure if this is really a problem, but in the cash system, characters tend to find a few magic items that suit them, then just upgrade them as they advance in levels. If what you want is a Vicious weapon, that is what you'll always have - only the plus changes. Again, this system gives an incentive to use what you actually find.

Possible Problems
In 3 and 3.5, you found mountains of "vendor trash" magic items, and the default reaction was to sell most of it. But because of the sheer amount of found items, it was almost guaranteed that some items would fit. In 4E, you only find one item per character per level (slightly less, actually) and items are also much more character-specific than in earlier editions - an item aimed at wardens is useless to everyone else, and there is no such thing as "Use Magic Device" anymore. The net result is that for the individual player, finding an item they can actually use is a big windfall. It is rare, but if you find a level +5 item that you can use, you probably more than double your net worth. Even if you have to pay the sale price to pay off your friends, it is still huge. Another problem with this is that you probably don't have the cash to pay off a level +5 item - the price escalation is just that big.

 

[DanmarLOK]

In relation to the gimping, items the players can't use and thus are underpowered and all that.

Consider inherent bonuses. Every 5 levels my players pick one per level from this list: +1 to hit, +1 damage (1d6 on crit), +1 AC, +1 FRW, +1 to skills (I have a HR on skills that removes the +1/2 level on them among pretty much everything else). They can't pick one twice until they've gone through them all. There are no +x weapons or +x AC items in the game anymore.

This opens up magic completely to the toy/gimmick bases. A level 10 character picks up a longsword and he's got a +2 to hit, +2 damage. He puts on a suit of chain he stole off a guard while escaping? +2 chain. It's a property of being a hero not a property of gear.

I can give them things like Restful Bedrolls, or Bowl of Everplentiful Gruel at will without having to worry I'm gimping them on power or they're 'behind the curve'.

It makes character sheets a PITA but I'm willing to put up with that in return for freedom in loot placement.

For a more detailed list http://www.keyourcars.com/houserules

 

[keterys]

Good point. And with the character builder now having a button to support giving out free enhancement bonuses, I think it's especially worthwhile.

 

[eamon]

Good point. And with the character builder now having a button to support giving out free enhancement bonuses, I think it's especially worthwhile.

I really wish the character builder were more customizable. There's so many things that might be fun to experiment with but that just are worth the hassle if they don't fit in its mold...

 

[keterys]

Amen.

 

[Noumenon]

just adding one level is really easy by comparison - you can run premade adventures with almost no change, just raise each item by one level.

How do you raise an item by a level? I'm guessing you mean "randomly select an item one level higher", like if the adventure says "Darkleaf armor +1" (level 4) you would just sub in something like "Barkskin armor +1" (level 5).

 

[clark411]

Great thread and well explained. With the prospect of having 7 players, fairly distributing treasure was a big concern to me. I might just go with your house rule. thanks!