Single/Multi classed balance issues

[chilibean]

It seems to me that multiclassed characters (those with more than 1 core class) are typically underpowered compared to characters that stick with 1 class. Granted the multiclassed guys are more flexible, but from my experience the added flexibility is generally not worth the cost. Therefore people VERY rarely multiclass in my games.

I've been thinking that it might be more balanced if we eliminate the XP penalties associated with multiclassing completely AND give an XP bonus (like +10% maybe) when they raise a level in a core class (but only when it is not their highest class, and when it's not taking first level in something new).

Has anyone done something like this, or come up with some other method of reducing the huge power imbalance between multiclassed and single classed characters? Any thoughts or suggestions on this?

 

[Crothian]

Well, when you talk about multiclassing are you talking about just core classes or multi classing into prestige classes? The first thing when looking at multi classing is to ignore all spellcasting classes. To multi class from or into a new spellcasting class will really hurt you. Your spells won't be as powerful and it will be very difficult to get thought SR and have a high DC for your spells.

From what I've seen Fighter/Rogue is a very powerful combination. THe problem is you can't compare this to a straight fighter or a straight rogue. Straight fighter will be a better in combat, and straight rogue will be better at sneaking/skills/etc. Characters havea different focus when they mutli class.

 

[Malin Genie]

I agree that the 'weakness' perceived in multiclassing is due to the relative strength of single-class spellcasters rather than a general problem with multi-classing.

Perhaps an approach like 'your caster level for spells = level in that class + 1/2 your caster level in other spellcasting classes' (so a Clr6/Wiz9 would cast cleric spells at caster level 10 and wizard spells at caster level 12. Although s/he could still only access lower level spells than a straight cleric or wizard, s/he does get to cast a broader range of spells. Losing access to higher level spells and full 'loss' of caster level is too much of a penalty IMHO.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I would think most DMs would be alright with allowing a player to multiclass without penalties. For example, playing an elven Sor/Ftr would normally incur an XP penalty, but I'd imagine with a good backstory, most DMs would waive the penalty.

It's always a tradeoff when leveling. The "melee" classes are very well suited to multiclassing, however the spellcasting classes are not. Even taking a single level of another class costs the big spellcasters 8th and 9th level spells, which are real game turners...

 

[bensei]

Even taking a single level of another class costs the big spellcasters 8th and 9th level spells, which are real game turners...

On the other hand, if you are playing a whole campaign, having some levels as fighter or ranger may make your sorcerer/wizard survive till he can cast high level spells...

 

[Doc_Subtlety]

From what I've seen Fighter/Rogue is a very powerful combination.

As an aside, I just wanted to point out that combos like that usually have really bad Will saves. (Something people tend to overlook, using that combo. My preference used to be to add some Cleric to the mix, when I was into multiclassing.)

 

[SableWyvern]

I've gone with adding all spellcaster levels for caster level (so that, for example, a wizard 5 ranger 6 casts has a caster level of 8).

Although a multiclassed caster still loses the higher level spells, his lower level spells remain as powerful, and he has more of them - both in overall choice and available for use at any time.

As far a low Will saves for a Fighter/Rogue, a single classed Fighter or Rogue would have the same Will save and a much lower Fort or Ref.

A Ftr or Rog 20 has base saves of +12, +6, +6, for a total of +24, while a Ftr10 Rog10 has base saves of +10, +10, +6, for a total of +26.

Don't see how you can possibly consider the multiclassed character as worse off re saves.

My party curently consists of:

Elf Ftr4 Wiz2
Human Pal5
Human Rgr6 Clr2
Dwarf Ftr5
Human Bbn1 Clr5
Human Rog6
Human Mnk6

All are effective characters, with the Rgr/Clr a little more effective due to his higher level.

Unbeknownst to them, they have made an enemy of a Sor5 Dru9, and with a caster level of 14 he's no pushover - especially given his huge selection of spells.

 

[Doc_Subtlety]

Don't see how you can possibly consider the multiclassed character as worse off re saves.

Couple of reasons:
- Comparisons at 20th level are nice, but at intermediate levels, you can miss out. A FTR/ROG can wait a long time, just for that first +1.

- Wis is often a dump stat for warrior hybrids.

*shrugs*

I've seen it cause trouble enough times that it seemed worth mentioning.

 

[chilibean]

Trying to balance saves wasn't my biggest concern. It mainly has to do with mixing spellcaster and non-spellcaster classes. And it's really only a major problem in certain combinations.

Suppose for example that your a fighter-5/wizard-5 in a party of 10th level characters. As a fighter you pretty much suck, and as a wizard you pretty much suck (compared with your 10th level single classes party mates). It's kinda like being half the level of everyone else, with a sidekick henchman. If you stand there and fight, you aren't going to do squat compared with the single classed fighter with more feats, more base attack, and wearing heavier armor. If you stand back and try to cast spells, you will probably be even more worthless in comparison.

But in other combinations it isn't so bad. A cleric-5/fighter-5 is MUCH better than the example above. He can still wear heavy armor, he doesn't take nearly the drop in base attack as a wizard, none of his spells get a spell failure chance, etc...

I REALLY LIKE the idea of having ALL caster levels add for the purposes of determining spell effects. That is a BIG step in the right direction. Finally a cleric of mystra-5/wizard-5 will be worth more than a wad of bubble gum stuck to the bottom of your boot.

In fact, that fixes a lot of my issues with the spellcasters multiclassing into other spellcaster classes. I always thought a high level sorcerer should be able to take a level in wizard and have that new arcane knowledge and understanding help while casting his sorcerer spells. Just like a Paladin who can already cast divine spells should be able to multiclass into cleric of the same god and not have his paladin casting abilities mean NOTHING to the cleical abilities.

I guess the fighter/rogues are just going to HAVE to wear light armor or have their rogue skills armor checked into worthlessness.

It doesn't solve the fighter/wizard issues, but it's a help.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

For Saves:
Bad Saves increase every 3 levels. So, if you mutliclass in 3-level-steps (which is also a good idea for avoiding multilcassing xp-penalties), you will never loose anything in regard to your Saving Throws.
If you multiclass good BAB classes with medium BAB classes or medium with medium BAB classes, this will also not hurt your BAB.

Multiclassing Spellcasters really causes trouble, that is true.
A Wizard10/sorcerer10 has an advantage in being able to cast many low level spells (if you rely on buffing spells, that is still good), but his caster level for purposes of Spell Resistance is to low to create a threat for most standard monsters at that CR.

Maybe the idea of chilibean is a good idea for this.
Your effective Spellcaster Level for penetrating Spell Resistance and maybe determine spell effects (damage die of Fireball, duration) and the purpose of gaing certain feats, is your total level of spellcaster classes, but for spells per day, you still use the standard method.

Mustrum Ridcully