Size bonuses for AC

[Kerrick]

So I've been going through the monsters, converting them to Project Phoenix stats.... now, back when I began, I realized that monster ACs and attack bonuses assume they're pitted against a Medium PC. Obviously, not all PCs are Medium, and not all things that a monster attacks will be Medium either - you've got familiars, animal companions, summoned monters, etc. So I came up with a handy little table whereby you can cross-reference your size (or and the target's size, or vice-versa (if you're the DM).

My question is this: Do you think it would be too hard for the players to remember their attack/grapple/AC bonuses vs. various monsters? I mean, the DM can say at the beginning of an encounter "Okay, this thing's Large [or Small, or Huge, or whatever]" and the players can make the adjustment themselves. I can then eliminate size bonus from monster AC entries entirely. I've already changed the special size bonus for grapple checks to be the same as the AC bonus (because it was hideously broken before), so all you have to remember when fighting a given opponent is one number.

 

[Hawken]

Do you think it would be too hard for the players to remember their attack/grapple/AC bonuses vs. various monsters?

Yes.
There are too many modifiers, not just for class abilities but racial as well. Just think how difficult it would be to calculate a Dwarf Ranger/Paladin fighting an enlarged half-orc/half-ogre! You've got the racial to AC vs. giants, the racial +1 against orcs, smite and favored enemy just to name a few modifiers.

I have no idea how you handled grappling, so I can't really comment on that, but I will wholeheartedly agree it is broken.

I think its something the DM's should just factor in. Keep it simple for the players. Have them roll, add in all their modifiers and then the DM adjusts for size and tells them if they hit/grapple/get hit.

 

[Kerrick]

Let's use the dwarf as an example. He's fighting an orcish barbarian (Medium); his attack/grapple* bonus is +1. The orc gets an enlarge spell from his friend the shaman. Suddenly he's Large - the dwarf's bonus is now +2. This modifier stacks with everything else, because it's technically a size bonus - just applied to the attacker's roll instead of the defender's AC.

*I'm using the CMB system from Pathfinder, but I halved the size bonuses and dropped the base DC from 15 to 10.

 

[Kerrick]

Let's use the dwarf as an example. He's fighting an orcish barbarian (Medium); his attack/grapple* bonus is +0. The orc gets an enlarge spell from his friend the shaman. Suddenly he's Large - the dwarf's attack bonus is now +1, and his grapple modifier -1. This modifier stacks with everything else, because it's technically a size bonus - just applied to the attacker's roll instead of the defender's AC.

*I'm using the CMB system from Pathfinder, but I halved the size bonuses and dropped the base DC from 15 to 10.

 

[Sylrae]

Hmm. Im' not sure why you halved the size bonus/penalties, but think I understand the purpose for the adding it to attacks instead of to ac. You want it to be harder for a large creature to hit a small creature than it is for a medium creature to hit a small creature. Is that the basic idea?

 

[Kerrick]

Hmm. Im' not sure why you halved the size bonus/penalties, but think I understand the purpose for the adding it to attacks instead of to ac.

I halved the size penalties for grapple checks only. PF's grapple rules use CMB = 1d20+BAB+size+mods vs. DC 15+BAB+size+mods. Their size mods are Large +2, Huge +4, etc. - double the norm. I reduced them back to -1, -2, etc. - the same as the size bonus to attacks/AC (or, in this case, just attacks).

You want it to be harder for a large creature to hit a small creature than it is for a medium creature to hit a small creature. Is that the basic idea?

Pretty much, yeah. All monster ABs are listed relative to a Medium PC, not a Small one, but it should be harder for a Large creature to hit a Small PC. I mean come on - that rule's been in place for 8 years now; let's USE it!

 

[Sylrae]

I halved the size penalties for grapple checks only. PF's grapple rules use CMB = 1d20+BAB+size+mods vs. DC 15+BAB+size+mods. Their size mods are Large +2, Huge +4, etc. - double the norm. I reduced them back to -1, -2, etc. - the same as the size bonus to attacks/AC (or, in this case, just attacks).


Pretty much, yeah. All monster ABs are listed relative to a Medium PC, not a Small one, but it should be harder for a Large creature to hit a Small PC. I mean come on - that rule's been in place for 8 years now; let's USE it!

well, that makes perfect sense to me for the to hit, but personally I agree with the double penalties/bonuses for gapple. its alot harder to grab a fly with your hand than it is to hit it with a flyswatter.

 

[Kerrick]

True, but it gives larger monsters a larger advantage, and many folks on the Pathfinder forums said the double bonuses were too much. I also applied a limit on the size of a creature you can grapple - three sizes smaller, or two larger. That means a human can initiate a grapple with a Diminutive creature (a fairy, e.g.) or a giant or titan (Huge).

 

[Sylrae]

True, but it gives larger monsters a larger advantage, and many folks on the Pathfinder forums said the double bonuses were too much. I also applied a limit on the size of a creature you can grapple - three sizes smaller, or two larger. That means a human can initiate a grapple with a Diminutive creature (a fairy, e.g.) or a giant or titan (Huge).

ed up thing in the MM. a fairy is a small creature. even though its the size od grass in the illustration... That is some big grass. lol

oh wait... its a bonus? how? larger monsters are easier to hit, smaller monsters would have a larger advantage. They would be harder to hit, and it would be easier for them to hit things.

 

[Kerrick]

ed up thing in the MM. a fairy is a small creature. even though its the size od grass in the illustration... That is some big grass. lol

Oh, oops. I was typing that off the top of my head, not actually checking.

oh wait... its a bonus? how? larger monsters are easier to hit, smaller monsters would have a larger advantage. They would be harder to hit, and it would be easier for them to hit things.

You lost me here, so let me explain this again. Let's say you've got a human (Medium) and a halfling (Small) fighting an ogre (Large). Instead of applying a -1 size bonus to the ogre's AC and attacks, you apply a +1 bonus to the human's attack roll and a +2 to the halfling's. For grapple checks, the human suffers a -1, and the halfling -2 (though technically, the halfling would probably get a bonus to Acrobatics* checks to escape, but that's a bit too complicated). So when you list the ogre's statblock, his "BAB/Grapple" entry would read "+3/+8" (BAB + Strength only) instead of "+3/+12".

*Acrobatics is the new skill comprising Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble.