Skeletons and the Need for Bludgeoning Weapons

Mattachine

Adventurer
What I disliked is the DR rules in general. Why not simply use resistances? Instead of DR 5/bludgeoning, a skeleton could just have resist 5 piercing, as others have said.

The old "you need a weapon this magical to beat this creature" is an old saw from 1e, where highly supernatural creatures simply couldn't be defeated with normal weapons. I didn't like it then, and I didn't like it in any iteration of the game.
 

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I greatly prefered monte cook's variant damage reduction to the official dr.


One more reason I'm happy he's working on 5e.

(That, his variant ranger, the book of experimental might, etc etc.)

Seemed he really got some of the flaws in 3e and worked to find ways to improve em.



My own damage reduction system kept specific vulnerabilites of creatures (e.g. werewolves, vampires, skeletons)....and turned the dr into a bonus as well.

So if skeletons had dr 5/bludgeoning, players would not only bypass their dr with a bludgeoning weapon, but they'd do an additional 5 damage with that as well (for a total of 10 points of damage more than if they used an "ineffective" weapon).

Also, yes, I agree the "requires holy AND silver AND lawful AND +3 AND flaming" sort was a bit much.

I generally used the 3.0 version of DR (most high lvl monsters needed a certain plus to hit) and then scaled the dr with a given weapon's plus.
e.g. If a monster had dr 15/+3, then a +1 weapon would ignor 5 points of that dr, a +2 weapon would ignore 10 points of it, and a +3 or better weapon would ignore the full 15 points.

If there was then holy, silver, lawful, flaming etc, then those components worked like the "specific resistance" I mentioned above for skeletons.



This setup worked for my group and made it feel less arbitrary what kind of weapon you needed (and less golfbag like) while at the same time keeping the "realism" component of classic monsters who were only hurt by silver, or cold iron, or skeleton bludgeoning, or whatever.
 

Yora

Legend
Giving skeletons DR/bludgeonging or a similar resistance has always bothered me. Granted, I can see why a spear or arrow might have some trouble, but a slashing weapon like an axe or sword? Are you kidding me? Such weapons can not only chop off limbs and heads, they can do so even with the meat still attached. You cant tell me that a diagonal slash through a skeleton's rib cage with a greatsword wouldn't really ruin its day.
Slashing weapons can do damage to bones. But that is really just a small thing compared to what it does to to flesh. I would dare to assume that most attacks with slashing weapons to not actually do any significant damage to bones at all and if they do, that's really not that important when you look at the wound it caused. And that's why skeletons are not immune to slashing weapons, but only resistant.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
There's certain feel/reactions that these rules want to invoke, but that I think they inevitably don't because it just doesn't jive with typical play behavior.

I.e. if a monster is resistant to slashing and piercing, you want the PCs to scream "Crap", scramble for improvised weapons, scratching out victory, or they all rally around the one character with the appropriate damage type, aiding him and the spotlight goes to him. This is evocative and found in fiction. But most players will just grit their teeth and grind through the encounter using their weaker weapons while glaring at the DM.

If a monster is resistant to all but magical items, you want players to feel fear, to rally around the one guy with the magical item, try something creative like wrap a club in a magical cloak, or you want them to try and power-attack, praying they breach the creature's hide. This is evocative and found in fiction. But most players will grit their teeth and grind through the encounter with their weaker weapons, while cursing the DM for throwing a monster that's hard to kill because the Dm hasn't given them adequate magical weapons.

If a monster cannot be destroyed via conventional means, you want players to look for unconventional methods like say, collapsing a tunnel on top of a monster. This is evocative and found in fiction. Not only "collapse the tunnel" is very unconventional way of thinking when approaching an adventure (Well we need to get through that tunnel when it's over, it's never been done before in any of the players careers, etc), but there are no clear and concise rules to handle "collapse the tunnel", so the Dm has to just hope the players get the idea. Instead, most players will grit their teeth and keep trying, and some characters will likely die before they realize the monster is "unbeatable", and then they get mad at the DM for throwing something unbeatable at them.

(Yes, your group may commonly try to collapse tunnels or rally around the one character with the appropriate damage type, but when designing rules, the designers must consider how most groups are going to play the game. Doing something to reward what most do not do would be enforcing a certain playstyle.)

Then there's the issue of rare item types, or at least item types that only effect a small subset of monsters. Silver is a good example. In 4e, the only monster that needs a silver weapon are the uncommonly encountered lycanthropes. So, the only reason you should ever get a silvered weapon is if you need to fight lycanthropes (3e was better with this in that a few others had silver weaknesses, but it was a small list). The same goes for Good aligned weapons, etc (and don't get me started on Law/Chaos). Adamantite was useful only for constructs (which don't appear that often anyhow).

You also come into the problem of "Ok x should kill monster y, but how do we use it?" like a wooden stake. You should be able to stake a vamp. But is that a called shot? A critical (rolled while wielding a 1d4 improvised wooden dagger)? A coup de gra- oh right, vampires turn to mist when reduced to 0 HP.

So you want to evoke a certain feel derived from fiction, but what you get is the opposite to ease of play. You wind up with melee characters carting in a golf bag of weaponry, checking their inventory to make sure they have an item of that damage type/property. Switching weaponry leads to a few minutes of changing their to-hit and damage calculations because they probably have feats tied into certain weapons, and those weapons have different enchantment effects/damage die. It doesn't feel exciting, just feels like refitting lower-quality tools.

Or you just play a caster and only worry about energy resistances and SR.
 
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Yora

Legend
(Yes, your group may commonly try to collapse tunnels or rally around the one character with the appropriate damage type, but when designing rules, the designers must consider how most groups are going to play the game. Doing something to reward what most do not do would be enforcing a certain playstyle.)
That's the problem. Your group may never get creative and grind through it hating the DM. That's not a sufficent basis to say that almost everyone, with a few singular exceptions, has the same experience.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
That's not a sufficent basis to say that almost everyone, with a few singular exceptions, has the same experience.
1) Then it's a good thing I used the word most, and not "almost everyone, with a few singular exceptions". :) I consider most to encompass 60-70% - and I would not characterize 30-40% as a few singular exceptions. Had I meant "almost everyone", I would have said something like "nearly everyone".

2) I'm welcome to say what I think most groups do. You're welcome to do the same. I feel that I'm making a reasonable assumption on the behavior of your average gaming group. There's no proof one way or the other unless someone wants to fund some gamer research. Or get WotC's data.
 
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Kingreaper

Adventurer
The carrot method for skeletons doesn't really work. A fleshy humanoid takes just as much damage from a mace a skeleton does,
Not actually true.

You see, the fleshy humanoid has SKIN, and MUSCLE, which spread out the damage from the bludgeoning weapon, making it less likely to shatter bones.

Without those things getting in the way, and spreading out the energy, bones are actually a lot easier to shatter (hard to cut, but easy to shatter).
 

Ed_Laprade

Adventurer
As a sort of aside, I've watched some medieval weapons documentary series on YouTube lately, and there's one where they test several weapons against a nicely sized piece of chainmail. (Conquest, but I don't remember which ep.) When they get to the ax, after all the others do minimal, or no, damage to it, it simply rips right through it. So I expect one would work pretty well against a skeleton. ;) (Of course, the mail probably wasn't rivited, but it was still pretty awesome to see it destroyed with one blow.)
 

Rechan

Adventurer
As a sort of aside, I've watched some medieval weapons documentary series on YouTube lately, and there's one where they test several weapons against a nicely sized piece of chainmail. (Conquest, but I don't remember which ep.) When they get to the ax, after all the others do minimal, or no, damage to it, it simply rips right through it. So I expect one would work pretty well against a skeleton. ;) (Of course, the mail probably wasn't rivited, but it was still pretty awesome to see it destroyed with one blow.)
Reminds me that the Pike Axe was created to cleave through helmets.
 

TwinBahamut

First Post
I'll just echo the idea that this kind of debate is exactly why there should be hacking damage alongside slashing, piercing, and blunt...

I also generally favor giving things weaknesses rather than resistances most of the time. In many ways, they are just plain more fun.
 

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