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Skill-based magic item creation system

Kerrick

First Post
I made this system after creating a variant crafting system. I thought making a skill-based magic item creation system would be interesting, and this deals with several problems I had with the existing system - XP costs, cursed items, and the simple ability to automatically make items with no chance of failure. I have a group playtesting it, but since they only meet once a week, I decided to post it here to get some feedback also.

Since it's a little long, I used the spoiler block to cut down the size of my post.

[sblock]
Craft (Artificing)

Use this skill for making, repairing, and recharging magic items.

Check:

Making a Magic Item:
Crafting a magic item is a bit simpler than making a normal item.
To craft an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item's crafting time and DC from Table 1 below.

2. Make a Craft check representing one day's work. If the check succeeds, you have completed one day of work. For each 10 points by which you exceed the DC, you accomplish an extra day's work. You can reduce the crafting time down to half in this manner.

If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress that day.

If you fail a roll by 5 or more, the enchantment fails, but the item is still usable – you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.

If the crafter rolls a natural 1 on the check, he suffers a catastrophe. Roll 1d10 (the DM should make this roll in secret) and consult the table below:

1: A surge in the flows of magic occurs, and the item's enchantment is warped slightly. The item is cursed, but the crafter does not know this. This result is otherwise treated as a minor setback.

2-4: A surge in the flows of magic occurs, and the item is drained of all magic. All gold and materials spent so far are lost, but the item can be enchanted again.

5-9 The crafter suffers a major setback. Half the gold and materials are lost, but the item's enchantment is intact and work can proceed normally. The crafter must pay half the original raw material cost again.

10: Due to a flaw in the item's manufacture, combined with a mishandling of the magical energies, the item is completely destroyed. All gold and materials spent so far are wasted.


If the crafter rolls a natural 20 on the check, he makes a breakthrough [for lack of a better word]. Roll 1d10 (the DM should make this roll in secret) and consult the table below:

1: A surge in the flows of magic occurs, and the item gains an extra minor benefit - the DC for an ability is increased by +1, it grants a slightly greater bonus than normal (+7 skill bonus instead of +5), etc. If the item can't be granted a bonus, treat this result as "2-4", below.

2-4: The crafter makes a breakthrough, or simply experiences a surge of good fortune. He accomplishes 3 days' work for that day. If the crafting time is 1 week or more, he accomplishes two weeks' worth of work.

5-9: The flows of magic are working in the crafter's favor, and he accomplishes an extra day's worth of work. If the crafting time is 1 week or more, he gains 3 days' work.

10: The crafter makes a work of art, and somehow manages to work in a special bonus, which may or may not be known to him, but which does not cost extra. The item has a minor benefit outside of its original enchantment; the DM should choose something related to the item's purpose, or related to the crafter (a cloak of resistance, for instance, made by a specialist evoker could have additional bonuses against energy; a sword made by a cleric could have an extra plus against undead; etc.).


Granting bonuses or penalties from rolling a natural 1 or natural 20 should occur once only per item. If the crafter rolls additional natural 1s or 20s, the result is treated as failure or success by 10 or more points, respectively.

If the crafting time is one week or more, you can instead make Craft checks by the week. A failed roll of 4 or less means you lose 2 days of work that week; a failed roll of 5 or more means that you ruined half the raw materials, and the entire week is wasted. For each 10 points by which you exceed the DC, you reduce the crafting time by two days (this is for a seven-day week; if you use a different length of time, reduce the time by one-third of the week, rounding down).

The times listed below for armor, weapons, and shields are for enchanting the items only. For example, if you're making a +1 longsword, you must make the masterwork longsword first (or have it made by someone else), then enchant it separately.

Table 1: Magic Item Craft DCs and Crafting Times
Code:
Item			Craft DC1	Crafting Time(1)Max. Price(2)
Potion			20		1 day(3)	--
Scroll			20+spell level	Special(1)	--
Wand, minor		21		1 day		3,000 gp
Minor wondrous		22		2 days		7,500 gp
Ring, minor		23		3 days		9,000 gp
Wand, medium		23		5 days		14,000 gp
Rod, medium		27		7 days		19,000 gp
Medium wondrous		27		9 days		27,500 gp
Ring, medium		27		12 days		28,000 gp
Wand, major		29		11 days		33,500 gp
Staff, medium		43		39 days		100,000 gp
Rod, major		44		40 days		100,000 gp
Major wondrous		45		42 days		100,000 gp
Ring, major		46		44 days		100,000 gp
High-end magic items4	50		50 days		200,000 gp
Epic magic items	30(5)		100 days(5)	--

1 Divide the item's price by 5,000 (round down) and add this to the base Craft DC. This number is also the modifier, in days, that is added to the base crafting time. If the price is under 5,000 gp, then the modifier is 0.

Scrolls have a crafting time of 10 minutes per spell level. See Scrolls, below.

2 The maximum price for an item to be in a given category. For example, a ring of the ram (8,600 gp) is a minor ring, while a ring of evasion (25,000 gp) is a medium ring.

3 By increasing the DC by +2 per potion, the crafter can brew a "batch" of potions – up to 5,000 gp worth or 10 potions total, whichever is less. All potions must be the same, of course – they are assumed to be brewed from a larger pool of components. The crafter pays 50% of the cost for each potion past the first.

4 Any item that exceeds 100,000 gp. No non-epic magic item can have a market price over 200,000 gp.

5 Divide the market price by 10,000 gp, and add this number to the Craft DC.

Since weapons and armor use a slightly different calculation, and owing to the graded multiplier rule (see below), all items that grant just bonuses (weapons, armor, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, etc.) use the following tables.

Code:
Bonus^2x 1000 gp		Bonus^2 x 1500 gp		Bonus^2 x 2000 gp
Bonus	DC	Time		Bonus	DC	Time		Bonus	DC	Time
1-2	21	1 day		1-2	21	1 day		1-2	22	2 days
3-4	25	5 days		3-4	27	7 days		3-4	30	10 days
5-6	32	12		5-6	38	18 days		5-6	44	24 days
7-8	46	44		7-8	60	60 days		7-8	73	89 days
9-10	62 	128		9-10	84	192 days	9-10	105	128 days
11-12	78	147		11-12	108	220 days	11-12	137	293 days
13-14	98	275		13-14	137	412 days	13-14	177	550 days
15-16	121	458		15-16	172	687 days	15-16	223	916 days
17-18	148	706		17-18	212	1059 days	17-18	276	1412 days
19-20	178	1,029 days	19-20	267	1543 days	19-20	336	2058 days

Repairing a Magic Item: Repairing a magic item is slightly different than repairing a normal item, because of the magic inherent in it. The cost is the same, but the one doing the repairs must also make a Craft (artificing) check against the item's craft DC -5. If the check fails (even if the repair check was successful), the repairs on the item have damaged it and altered the magic. If the check fails by 4 or less, the damage is only minor – the item loses a few charges, a plus of enchantment, or something similar. If it fails by 5 or more, the damage is major, and the item becomes cursed. If the roll is a natural 1, the magic is drained from the item, though it can be enchanted again.

Repairing a magic item takes the same amount of time it would take to repair an item of the same type.

Recharging a Magic Item: Recharging magic items is a relatively simple procedure, but it still requires a bit of knowledge to perform properly. Recharging a magic item requires a Craft (artificing) check (see below); if the check fails, nothing happens beyond the item not being charged. If the check is a natural 1, the item is drained of all charges and becomes inert, though it can be enchanted again.

Recharging an item takes one day, but does not cost XP. If you are recharging multiple spells into an item (a staff, e.g.), it takes one day for each different spell – for example, a staff of fire requires one day to recharge its uses of burning hands, one day for fireball, and one day for wall of fire.

Code:
Item		DC
Wand		5
Minor wondrous	7
Rod		10
Medium wondrous	12
Staff		14
Major wondrous	17

Action: Varies (see above).
Try Again: Yes, unless the item has been ruined.
Special: Having 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) grants a +2 synergy bonus. The rules for assistants still apply, as with the normal crafting rules.

Having 5 or more ranks in this skill grants a +2 bonus to Knowledge (arcana) or Spellcraft checks to identify command words and item functions.

Having 5 or more ranks in Craft (alchemy, armorsmithing, jewelry, or weaponsmithing) grants a +2 synergy bonus to creating or repairing potions, armor, rings, or weapons (including staves), respectively.


Potions

Potions are a special case. If you wish, you could move them under the Craft (alchemy) skill instead of Craft (artificing), in which case any bonuses for Craft (alchemy) apply to making potions. The Brew Potion feat grants a +3 bonus to making potions only, which stacks with the other bonuses.

Potions can be brewed in batches, instead of one at a time. Each potion beyond the first increases the DC by 2, but you can only make up to 5,000 gp worth of potions, or 10 potions of any price, in a given batch, whichever is less. You pay full price for the first potion and 50% more for each additional potion (up to the maximum of 5,000 gp). It takes one day to brew a batch of potions.


Scrolls

Scrolls have a creation time of 10 minutes per spell level. There's no stated maximum of the number of spells you can put on a scroll, but the magic item tables list up to 6 spells on a scroll, so that's a reasonable cap. If the total time exceeds 8 hours, it takes more than one day to make the scroll. The caster cannot stop in the middle of scribing a spell – that is, if someone wanted to scribe six 9th-level spells (90 minutes each), he would have to do five the first day and the last on the second day. He could, however, start a new scroll on the second day if he wished, after he finished the first.

---

Discussion

Because this has become a skill-based system, some changes must be made to existing rules. I highly recommend NOT implementing this system in the middle of an existing campaign, but if you really want to, read the following:

Since Craft is a class skill for all classes, anyone can take ranks in it. Unless they have spellcaster levels, however, they can't create items on their own, but they can aid a spellcaster in making an item, especially those that require a certain number of ranks, a feat, or levels in a class or prestige class.

Since this follows the normal Craft rules, including a chance of failure, the XP costs have been eliminated. We felt that the chance of ruining the item (and thus wasting a lot of time, money, and possibly XP from casting the requisite spells) is a sufficient balancing factor.

Anyone who has taken the item creation feats might wonder, "What was the point? Now I have useless feats!" In order to compensate these players, they can either a) choose new feats; or b) keep the feats in exchange for a +3 bonus in Craft (artificing) and an additional +3 to craft the item related to the feat (wands, rods, rings, whatever), as it represents a specialized focus in creating the given item, similar to Skill Focus. Craft Epic [Magic Item] feats grant an additional +3 to the roll. If you use this option, however, you can't gain any further benefit from taking Skill Focus (Craft [artificing]).

Due to the high DCs for crafting weapons (bonus^2 x 2,000 gp), I recommend using bonus^2 x 1,500 gp as the formula instead. Weapon enhancement bonuses are less valuable in 3.5 anyway, due to the new DR system - even one of the designers acknowledged that they should be around 1.5 times armor costs now. The system will work either way, but I posted the DCs and times for (bonus^2 x 1,500 gp) in case anyone wanted to use it. I didn't do (bonus^2 x 2,500 gp) because very few items use it - ioun stones are about the only ones (it's DC 22 and 2 days, if anyone was wondering).

This system cannot be used with the x10 epic multiplier – the price contradictions inherent in crafting a +6 market value sword vs. a +6 enhancement bonus sword, for example, create too many difficulties in making things work. This system will work, however, if you use a graded multiplier, which I'll be discussing in more detail in another thread.[/sblock]


Item crafting feats (taken from my post further down the thread):

[sblock]
Master Crafter [General]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.

Prerequisites: Craft (chosen skill) 7 ranks

Benefit: Choose one Craft skill. When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different Craft skill.


Master Artificer [General]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.

Prerequisites: Craft (artificing) 7 ranks, caster level 1st

Benefit: Choose one type of magic item (weapons, armor, rings, rods, scrolls, staves, wands, or wondrous items). When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different magic item type.


Epic Crafter [Epic]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.

Prerequisites: Craft (chosen skill) 17 ranks, Master Crafter

Benefit: Choose one Craft skill. When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different Craft skill. The bonuses from this feat stack with those granted by the Master Crafter feat.


Epic Artificer [General]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.
Prerequisites: Craft (chosen skill) 7 ranks, Master Artificer, caster level 1st

Benefit: Choose one type of magic item (weapons, armor, rings, rods, scrolls, staves, wands, or wondrous items). When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different magic item type. The bonuses from this feat stack with those granted by the Master Crafter feat.[/sblock]
 
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RainOfSteel

Explorer
Overall, I think your system is vastly superior to the core system given in the SRD/books.

I have been wondering for a while how to adapt the craft-points mechanics in Unearthed Arcana to what I wanted to do in my future games, and have been particularly uninspired. Past skill-based systems I tried to invent looked too much like Ars Magica's system. As a result, I think I'll be using your system, with perhaps a few tweaks.

I have some questions/comments, though.

-----------------------------------------------------------

There might be one or more new Loremaster secrets that can affect these mechanics.

There might be new Salient Divine Abilities that can affect these mechanics.


Kerrick said:
[...] and this deals with several problems I had with the existing system - XP costs, cursed items, and the simple ability to automatically make items with no chance of failure.
Absolutely fantastic on all counts!

I despise XP costs for creating magical items. (Of all the good things 3.x brought to DnD, this wasn't one of them.)


Kerrick said:
2. Make a Craft check representing one day's work.
This looks ok, but I would have to do some desk testing to find out how it went over time and with die rolls.


Kerrick said:
If you fail a roll by 5 or more, the enchantment fails, but the item is still usable – you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again, but you do not lose XP until the item is complete.
This appears to suggest that XP are being used to craft the item. Given the rest of the text, this appears to be a piece of text left over from an earlier version.


Kerrick said:
If you roll a natural 1, the item is completely ruined and must be started over. Alternately, the item can be finished, but it is cursed (though the crafter might not know this). If it is cursed, then you ruin half the raw materials, as noted above. The DM should determine appropriate effects for cursed items.
This is sheer genius, IMO.

This fits in perfectly with legend.

However, I think you should include a section for creating items that are deliberately cursed. Some crafters are mad or vengeful, after all.


Kerrick said:
The times listed below for armor, weapons, and shields are for enchanting the items only. For example, if you're making a +1 longsword, you must make the masterwork longsword first (or have it made by someone else), then enchant it separately.
I think you should include a variant system that allows for non-masterwork items to be enchanted at penalty to the DC.

(Says the fan of Laurence Watt-Evans', The Misenchanted Sword.)

I also think you should include a system that allows for the reduction of the time required via normally inadvisable shortcuts, with penalties to be taken as appropriate.

You can also include "production secrets" (more general and weaker than Loremaster secrets) that are possible to learn in-game. They would be by category (per the original Craft Items feats). These can either give a bonus of a point or two to the Craft DC or 1 day off of the Crafting Time for sub-week times (minimum 1 day), or 1/10th the days off of multi-week production, round down, where at least one day is removed. Only one of each time (bonus and time-saving).


Kerrick said:
Code:
High-end magic items4	22+ 5		43 days		200,000 gp
Epic magic items	30+5		200 days	--
What does the +5 mean after these Craft DC checks? If it's simply a modifier, the Craft DC checks should be 27 and 35.

Also, I'm not familiar with the category, "High-end magic items4". It that a new custom category, or one I missed?
 

Kerrick

First Post
There might be one or more new Loremaster secrets that can affect these mechanics.

There might be new Salient Divine Abilities that can affect these mechanics.
I hadn't thought of the Loremaster.. I'll have to take a look at it.

This looks ok, but I would have to do some desk testing to find out how it went over time and with die rolls.
Yeah, I've got a group playtesting this too, but it might be awhile before I get any real feedback.

This appears to suggest that XP are being used to craft the item. Given the rest of the text, this appears to be a piece of text left over from an earlier version.
Oops. It is - I'll delete that part.

This is sheer genius, IMO.

This fits in perfectly with legend.

However, I think you should include a section for creating items that are deliberately cursed. Some crafters are mad or vengeful, after all.
Thanks! :) I suppose if you were to deliberately make a cursed item, you could go with the DMG rules in the cursed item section.

I think you should include a variant system that allows for non-masterwork items to be enchanted at penalty to the DC.
Ooh, good idea. I don't know if you saw the MW rules on our site, but I included a rule down at the bottom where sub-par items can be enchanted. I'd say around -4 or -5 would be a good penalty for those.

I also think you should include a system that allows for the reduction of the time required via normally inadvisable shortcuts, with penalties to be taken as appropriate.
Normally inadvisable shortcuts? I know roughly what you mean, but could you give me an example here?

You can also include "production secrets" (more general and weaker than Loremaster secrets) that are possible to learn in-game. They would be by category (per the original Craft Items feats). These can either give a bonus of a point or two to the Craft DC or 1 day off of the Crafting Time for sub-week times (minimum 1 day), or 1/10th the days off of multi-week production, round down, where at least one day is removed. Only one of each time (bonus and time-saving).
Interesting - something for the Experts and Loremasters to have, maybe? I might make it a feat:

Master Crafter [General]

You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.

Prereqs: Craft (chosen skill) 7 ranks

Benefit: Choose one Craft skill. When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 1/10th (for times over 1 week), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is less than one day, it is halved.

Special: If you choose to add +10 to the DC to reduce the time, the benefits from this feat still apply.

That's just off the top of my head, mind you. I chose 7 ranks because that's the minimum for MW items under the variant mastercrafting system, and a single Craft skill because someone who's specialized in the skill (say, a carpenter) should be able to make items using that skill (cabinets, e.g.) more quickly than an average crafter. This is how a master blacksmith can churn out a sword of the same quality in less time than an average smith. You could also, like you said, do feats for the individual classes of magic items - staves, rods, rings, etc.

What does the +5 mean after these Craft DC checks? If it's simply a modifier, the Craft DC checks should be 27 and 35.
The 5 refers to the notes; I had a feeling it would cause some confusion written as it was, but I don't think I can do superscript with BBCode. The DCs are 22+ and 30+, meaning "22 plus (market price/10,000)" or "30 plus (market price/10,000)". So, for example, a staff of power (211,000 gp) would have a Craft DC of 43. A ring of rapid healing (epic ring, 300,000) would have a Craft DC of 60. (Hmm. Might have to drop the base DC for epic items a bit...)

Also, I'm not familiar with the category, "High-end magic items4". It that a new custom category, or one I missed?
I made that one up - like the note under the table says, it's any item between 60K and 200K (the cap for non-epic items). It was easier to lump all of them into one category, because they exceed the prices for "major" items.

Thanks for the comments - some good ideas here.
 

RainOfSteel

Explorer
Kerrick said:
Ooh, good idea. I don't know if you saw the MW rules on our site, but I included a rule down at the bottom where sub-par items can be enchanted. I'd say around -4 or -5 would be a good penalty for those.
I haven't read that page, although I have read the one on magical materials, having jumped there from a topic on the subject a few days or weeks ago.

Reading through your site is something I have marked down to do when I have a day or two of free time.



Kerrick said:
Normally inadvisable shortcuts? I know roughly what you mean, but could you give me an example here?
Hmm. I realize I didn't do a good job of describing that.

In most crafting work, the crafter can skip steps to complete the work faster.

If done with great skill and ingenuity, this can save time and money without sacrificing quality.

If done poorly, this can ruin the project.

Usually, if a master has gotten one of these "step skipping" procedures down pat, they can codify it and make it repeatable in order to pass it on to their apprentices.

Sort of like a secret martial arts move, only for building things.

Naturally, all steps cannot be eliminated, and so only a limited number of secrets could be applied to any one project. Probably three at most.

I was thinking of limiting them to either a +1 bonus or a savings of 1 day (or maybe 1 week for projects at least 4 weeks long), and futher by category (secrets for rings, rods, potions, wondrous items, etc.). This way, they wouldn't get out of hand.

I wasn't thinking of linking these production secrets with feats or anything like that. Just another form of treasure to drop on PCs that doesn't involve new weapons in and of themselves (yes, it can lead to that, but only with time and money).

I did think of some additional feat-related ideas for this system, but not for the above.

One of those was something like A Spark of Genius, a feat that I was going to require as a prerequisite for anyone who wanted to craft artifacts or epic items. I was sketching out some ideas at work today, but wanted to read over the canon spell research rules before I went anywhere with it (I was thinking of having spell research done as Craft (Spells) as a result of your system, or perhaps I'll just extend the definition of artificing to cover spell research, I'm not sure).

As for the item feats, you mentioned giving them a +3 Craft (Artificing) and a further +3 bonus if the project was related to the feat's category, but that these bonuses do not stack with Skill Focus (Artificing).

I would rather specify that item feats granted +3 Craft (Artificing) only for the feat's category, and also shaved off 1/5 or 1/4 of the necessary time. That way, Skill Focus (Artificing) does not come into anti-stacking conflict with the item feats, and is better from a player perspective in that they do not feel they waste a feat choice. The time savings should make taking the item feats very attactive.


Kerrick said:
That's just off the top of my head, mind you. I chose 7 ranks because that's the minimum for MW items under the variant mastercrafting system, and a single Craft skill because someone who's specialized in the skill (say, a carpenter) should be able to make items using that skill (cabinets, e.g.) more quickly than an average crafter.
7 ranks is fine with me.

I generally feel that masterwork items are the bailiwick of higher level characters, and would probably only push it higher for my purposes.



Kerrick said:
The 5 refers to the notes; I had a feeling it would cause some confusion written as it was, but I don't think I can do superscript with BBCode.
You're right, no superscript with code tags. I usually indicate superscripts/notes with ().

22(5)
30(5)
.
.
.
(5) . . .


Kerrick said:
[...] would have a Craft DC of 60. (Hmm. Might have to drop the base DC for epic items a bit...)
Oh, I disagree.

With teamwork from Aid Another, it will be all too easy to break that.

Also, a PC enchanter will invariably move to acquire one item granting high Int, and another item granting a bonus to Craft (Artificing), and would probably pursue a Tome of Clear Thought on top that.

Also, auspicious days, locations, enchanting chambers, dedicated labs (by category and/or by school of magic), dedicated enchanting equipment, and others, will all conspire to push the bonuses higher still.

I say you should leave the targets for the good stuff in the stratosphere, the PCs will find a way to get there, if you leave them enough wiggle room (and channels to spend time and money on).


Kerrick said:
Thanks for the comments - some good ideas here.
You are welcome. I assure you, I'll be using the core of what you've posted here. If you update a more finalized version, please post (or PM) a link to whatever wiki web page it winds up on so I can save that.
 

Kerrick

First Post
Reading through your site is something I have marked down to do when I have a day or two of free time.
Cool. Lots and lots of stuff there.

In most crafting work, the crafter can skip steps to complete the work faster.

If done with great skill and ingenuity, this can save time and money without sacrificing quality.

If done poorly, this can ruin the project.
So you're suggesting a variation on the "Increase the DC by +10 to get the job done faster" thing. I can go with that; I came up with a couple feats (see below), but I'm not sure how to implement it otherwise.

I did think of some additional feat-related ideas for this system, but not for the above.

One of those was something like A Spark of Genius, a feat that I was going to require as a prerequisite for anyone who wanted to craft artifacts or epic items. I was sketching out some ideas at work today, but wanted to read over the canon spell research rules before I went anywhere with it (I was thinking of having spell research done as Craft (Spells) as a result of your system, or perhaps I'll just extend the definition of artificing to cover spell research, I'm not sure).
Interesting. I'm not really behind the idea of players being able to craft artifacts, but it could work for epic items (although I think the epic item creation feats are a waste of feat slots - just because it's "epic" shouldn't mean you have to take another feat to be able to make it).

As for the item feats, you mentioned giving them a +3 Craft (Artificing) and a further +3 bonus if the project was related to the feat's category, but that these bonuses do not stack with Skill Focus (Artificing).

I would rather specify that item feats granted +3 Craft (Artificing) only for the feat's category, and also shaved off 1/5 or 1/4 of the necessary time. That way, Skill Focus (Artificing) does not come into anti-stacking conflict with the item feats, and is better from a player perspective in that they do not feel they waste a feat choice. The time savings should make taking the item feats very attactive.
Yeah, I fixed that - check out these feats....

[sblock]
Master Crafter [General]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.

Prerequisites: Craft (chosen skill) 7 ranks

Benefit: Choose one Craft skill. When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different Craft skill.

Master Artificer [General]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.

Prerequisites: Craft (artificing) 7 ranks, caster level 1st

Benefit: Choose one type of magic item (weapons, armor, rings, rods, scrolls, staves, wands, or wondrous items). When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different magic item type.


Epic Crafter [Epic]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.

Prerequisites: Craft (chosen skill) 17 ranks, Master Crafter

Benefit: Choose one Craft skill. When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different Craft skill. The bonuses from this feat stack with those granted by the Master Crafter feat.


Epic Artificer [General]
You can make things more quickly and efficiently than normal.
Prerequisites: Craft (chosen skill) 7 ranks, Master Artificer, caster level 1st

Benefit: Choose one type of magic item (weapons, armor, rings, rods, scrolls, staves, wands, or wondrous items). When making items using that skill, the DC is reduced by 2, and the time to make the item is reduced by 1 day (if the time is less than 1 week) or by 10% (for times over 1 week, round down), to a minimum of 1 day. If the crafting time is one day or less, it is halved.

This may be taken multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different magic item type. The bonuses from this feat stack with those granted by the Master Crafter feat.[/sblock]


I split normal crafting and artificing because magic items require caster levels, and because those feats can take the place of the item creation feats. I'm not sure if it's too much - I might change it so you can take either a reduction to the DC or a reduction to time, but not both; I haven't had a chance to really crunch the numbers yet. The epic feats are probably a bit much both in bonuses and granting both DC and time reduction, since you accomplish an extra day's work for every 10 points by which you exceed the DC (I replaced the "add +10 to get the work done faster" rule with this one).

Oh, I disagree.

With teamwork from Aid Another, it will be all too easy to break that.

Also, a PC enchanter will invariably move to acquire one item granting high Int, and another item granting a bonus to Craft (Artificing), and would probably pursue a Tome of Clear Thought on top that.

I've got a built-in limit to the number of aides you can have. I didn't know there were (are?)items that grant Craft bonuses.

Also, auspicious days, locations, enchanting chambers, dedicated labs (by category and/or by school of magic), dedicated enchanting equipment, and others, will all conspire to push the bonuses higher still.
Sounds like the rules for power points and celestial events on the site. I hadn't thought of applying them to item creation, but that's a really good idea.

I say you should leave the targets for the good stuff in the stratosphere, the PCs will find a way to get there, if you leave them enough wiggle room (and channels to spend time and money on).
Yeah. I'm going to play around with the epic stuff today, see if I can figure out a good base DC and crafting time. I'm also trying to figure out whether or not I really need the x10 multiplier - I'm ditching it for weapons and armor, since it'll just screw the table up, and (if you use the mastercrafting rules) you have to pay twice for magic armor/weapons.

If you update a more finalized version, please post (or PM) a link to whatever wiki web page it winds up on so I can save that.
Once this is finalized, it'll go up on the wiki. I could give you a link now, but it won't work till I get it up. :p
 
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airwalkrr

Adventurer
I haven't read the rules comprehensively, but I will give you my first impression. It seems like crafting magic items is pretty easy (i.e. low DCs). The XP cost in the core rules may not be perfect, but it is a good way of balancing the production of magic items. Many PCs will be able to hit these DCs by taking 10 at a very early level (you are aware that you can take 10 on a Craft check, right?), unless you specifically prohibited taking 10 somewhere and I missed it. With max ranks, a good Int, and masterwork tools, a 1st level wizard is already capable of reliably making all but the most powerful items on the list. A 10th level wizard with all that stuff can make anything! (13 ranks + 4 Int + 2 mw tools = +19)

However, I do like the idea. I would simply make the DCs higher. My philosophy is that magic items should not be reliably craftable until about 9th level (yea, I like AD&D). I would suggest you alter the DCs to reflect that. The +19 for a 10th level wizard is a reasonable assumption and not a power build so it would be safe to use that as a benchmark. IMC, I allow the Alchemy skill to be used to make potions and the Spellcraft skill to be used to make scrolls. The DC for crafting is 25 + spell level for both items. Normal crafting rules apply except the cost for raw materials, which is half the market price. A low-level character MIGHT be able to make a potion or a scroll, but until he gets to be about 8th or 9th level, he is more likely to fail than succeed.

That's just my opinion on the matter. I really like the idea and I think I will borrow some tidbits from it. I like the idea of an Artificing skill to craft magic items. But I think keeping the feats around as a way to craft magic items without investing in skills is a decent idea too. I will have to think about it more.
 

RainOfSteel

Explorer
Tinkering with the DCs for my purposes was one of the tweaks I was thinking of.

I didn't say anything about them being right or wrong because Kerrick seems to know what it is he* wants for his campaign.

That I can perform what amounts to finely gradated customization just by going down the line and changing the DCs is, IMO, one of the graces of this system.

----------------------

* Or she, I don't really know.

----------------------

I'm sorry I haven't given any substantial additional response. My head cold is taking its toll at the moment.
 
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Firzair

First Post
airwalkrr said:
I haven't read the rules comprehensively, but I will give you my first impression. It seems like crafting magic items is pretty easy (i.e. low DCs). The XP cost in the core rules may not be perfect, but it is a good way of balancing the production of magic items. Many PCs will be able to hit these DCs by taking 10 at a very early level (you are aware that you can take 10 on a Craft check, right?), unless you specifically prohibited taking 10 somewhere and I missed it. With max ranks, a good Int, and masterwork tools, a 1st level wizard is already capable of reliably making all but the most powerful items on the list. A 10th level wizard with all that stuff can make anything! (13 ranks + 4 Int + 2 mw tools = +19)

However, I do like the idea. I would simply make the DCs higher. My philosophy is that magic items should not be reliably craftable until about 9th level (yea, I like AD&D). I would suggest you alter the DCs to reflect that. The +19 for a 10th level wizard is a reasonable assumption and not a power build so it would be safe to use that as a benchmark. IMC, I allow the Alchemy skill to be used to make potions and the Spellcraft skill to be used to make scrolls. The DC for crafting is 25 + spell level for both items. Normal crafting rules apply except the cost for raw materials, which is half the market price. A low-level character MIGHT be able to make a potion or a scroll, but until he gets to be about 8th or 9th level, he is more likely to fail than succeed.

That's just my opinion on the matter. I really like the idea and I think I will borrow some tidbits from it. I like the idea of an Artificing skill to craft magic items. But I think keeping the feats around as a way to craft magic items without investing in skills is a decent idea too. I will have to think about it more.
Those were exactly my thoughts too. I wouldn't create it like a skill but I would tie the crafting to a caster level check. So you won't have to deal with the easy increase of the bonuses to the craft check. The DCs could be much lower and there would be no taking 10 on it.
Also I would increase the DC by 2 per spell level so it would be in accordance with the aquisition of the spells and the caster level.

But overall a nice and good system for getting rid of the Xp costs!

Greetings
Firzair
 

Kerrick

First Post
I haven't read the rules comprehensively, but I will give you my first impression. It seems like crafting magic items is pretty easy (i.e. low DCs). The XP cost in the core rules may not be perfect, but it is a good way of balancing the production of magic items. Many PCs will be able to hit these DCs by taking 10 at a very early level (you are aware that you can take 10 on a Craft check, right?), unless you specifically prohibited taking 10 somewhere and I missed it.
They're too low because I forgot to add a note to the table that you're supposed to divide the market price by 5,000 and add that to the DC as well as the crafting time. I caught it last night, and the original post has been updated. But, looking over them again, I think you may be right - even adding the modifier, they're pretty low (and yes, you can take 10). You still have to fulfill the item's caster level requirement, which limits when you can make them, but I'll look them over and make some adjustments.

The DC for crafting is 25 + spell level for both items. Normal crafting rules apply except the cost for raw materials, which is half the market price. A low-level character MIGHT be able to make a potion or a scroll, but until he gets to be about 8th or 9th level, he is more likely to fail than succeed.
Wow. That's a little higher than I'd put it, as you can see. I'm more of the mind that low-level PCs (up to about 3rd) could make potions and scrolls; 2nd-4th, they can make lesser wands and +1 weapons/armor; 5th-8th, they can do minor wondrous items, +2 armor/weapons, minor rings and major wands (3rd-4th level); 9-13 would be lesser staves and rods, mid-level (+3 to +4) armor/weapons, and medium wondrous items; 14+ would cover high-end armor (+5 and up), major staves/rods, and major wondrous items.

Hmm. I just belted those out off the top of my head, but they seem like good guidelines (item creation prereqs notwithstanding, since they don't quite match). I'll use those when I go back over the DCs.

Tinkering with the DCs for my purposes was one of the tweaks I was thinking of.

I didn't say anything about them being right or wrong because Kerrick seems to know what it is he* wants for his campaign.
It's not really for MY campaign (though we are using); this is just a general design idea. But like I said, I'll go over the DCs. I was going to ask what parts you were thinking of changing, but I guess I got my answer. :)
 

geosapient

First Post
Kerrick said:
The 5 refers to the notes; I had a feeling it would cause some confusion written as it was, but I don't think I can do superscript with BBCode. The DCs are 22+ and 30+, meaning "22 plus (market price/10,000)" or "30 plus (market price/10,000)". So, for example, a staff of power (211,000 gp) would have a Craft DC of 43. A ring of rapid healing (epic ring, 300,000) would have a Craft DC of 60. (Hmm. Might have to drop the base DC for epic items a bit...)

DC 60 sounds reasonable enough for an item of 300,000gp.

Level 20 Mage

23 ranks
+5 Intelligence
+3 skill focus
+2 Masterwork Tools
+? Intelligence boosting items
+2? Aid Another (if allowed)
____
33 - ~40

That keeps it pretty much out of the hands of non-epic characters. If there is a feat that adds +2 to a specific craft and profession (don't know why there wouldn't be) then it would still be 35 + bonuses.

You could add in epic feats that give a bonus so that epic crafters could more easily make epic items.
 

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