Skill Challenges: Bringing the Awesome

loseth

First Post
So we've seen how skill challenges work (roughly). If you're not familiar, have a look at Harr's example below. So I ask, what are the top three things you will do (table rules, preparation, house rules, whatever) to help bring the awesome when you run skill challenges?

Oh, and in before 'I'll ban them from my table!' ;)


Harr said:
It's a simple guideline for structuring a non-combat scene, meant to be a help in deciding when to begin rolling and when to end. It is also a prompt to help communicate to the players 'be creative, come up with unusual action and ideas to put your strongest skills into use'. I myself found it extremely useful.

Ultimately it would depend on your DMing style, I guess. If you are experienced as a DM, if you have no trouble with identifying interesting conflicts of skill, setting a good pace and knowing when to move on so the game doesn't drag and people get bored, if your players are proactive enough that they have no problems knowing where to go and what to do and all agree on what to do as a team in a timely manner, then the system is going to seem of little value, but then again a DM with skills and a group like that, doesn't really need a skills challenge system, they can do just fine with 'what do you do?' and adlibbing.

Myself and my players were very much NOT one of these groups; we have always had major problems with players not knowing what to do when there wasn't a fight going on, or fixating on a scene and becoming convinced that there's some secret there when there wasn't any, I had problems with having them roll and roll for trivial stuff that had no importance and made no difference, we would often get 'what now?' moments and boredom, etc, etc, etc.

Since I adopted the 4e skill-list and skill-challenge system (or my own interpretation of it) in our 3.5 games, the difference has been dramatic. We have none of our old problems, and we have way too much fun on non-combats... so much so that I've recently been toying with the idea of having entirely non-combat game sessions every now and again

To illustrate, here is one encounter we've played through where the rolls went particularly well: The characters are travelling through a forest and come upon a large tree. There's a dead, naked man hanged on the tree. I announce a challenge with a general skill DC of 18 (I don't say how long the challenge is, but it's 6/4).

The rogue decides to walk up to the corpse and inspect it with Perception. He wins the roll and notices that theres a dry red line of blood going from the corpses throat to his groin, like he was sliced completely open then put back together. The wizard uses his Insight to try to understand what this means, and fails. The Ranger uses his Athletics to climb up the tree without disturbing the corpse, and wagers a Hard roll on it. We wins the hard roll and I offer him a second success with another skill, he chooses Nature to inspect the tree itself and I describe the tree's dryad being pleased with him and making herself visible to the party from the branches of the tree. Meanwhile, there's a discussion amongst the players which results in the Samurai trying his History skill to see if he has any knowledge of any historic battles where people were hung from trees after being sliced in half and re-closed and why someone would do something like that; he wins the roll and remembers tales of honorless dogs of war who would hide balloons of poison gas inside corpses and make traps out of them which would trigger on touch.

We cycle back to the rogue, who tries to climb the tree as well and fails. This makes 2 fails, but they need 4 to fail the challenge and set off the trap, so I describe him falling and just narrowly avoiding hitting the corpse, and it swaying dangerously and the top of the cut splitting just a little bit. Everyone gulps. The wizard tries diplomacy on the dryad and asks what she knows of this corpse and why it's there. He wins, and dryad tells him she doesn't know why the corpse is, but that she's sure a black satyr (enemy of hers) has set it up there while she slept in hopes of someone triggering it and killing her tree. The ranger tries a Hard thievery check to secure the corpse and cut the rope, which he wins.

The party now has the 6 wins, so they've won the challenge, but I say nothing and I let it play out. The Samurai rolls athletics to catch the corpse gently and makes it (but it wouldn't have burst anyways since the challenge was won), then the rogue describes burying it so that it won't hurt anything else, which I tell him he doesn't need to roll, they have won the challenge, they clap and cheer a little bit, and the dryad thanks them and gives them some advice and the traditional wooden magic item that dryads always give as rewards

All this happens in the space of 20 minutes, with everybody on the edge of their seats and engaged in what's going on, noone wandering off to do something else, no boredom, no 'huh?' moments, no 'dead air', and ends up really satisfying and fun for them and me. Now, is doing this possible without any challenge system? Sure why, not. If you can do it, that's great. Would it have been possible for us to pull off this well without the system? I know myself and my players well enough to say not in a million years So that's why the system is great for me. Sorry for the too-long post, btw, I'm just a bit excited about it.
 

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Jack99

Adventurer
loseth said:
So we've seen how skill challenges work (roughly). If you're not familiar, have a look at Harr's example below. So I ask, what are the top three things you will do (table rules, preparation, house rules, whatever) to help bring the awesome when you run skill challenges?

Wait and see what the DMG says/includes?
 

AZRogue

First Post
If they work as well as in Harr's example, I'll be extremely pleased. In any event, I'm still waiting patiently for the DMG to crack that sucker open and take its stuff.
 


Celebrim

Legend
There are two reasons why I'd never use the skill challenge described:

1) It requires an metagame announcement. To me, saying 'This is a skill challenge with general skill DC 18' or anything like that ruins the scene. It ought to be implicit that everything is a challenge if the players want it to be.
2) If the specific challenge is 'disarming the trap', then a skill challenge disarms the trap (as is shown from the example) even if the PC's take no action to do so until after they win the challenge. I've got no problems with taking specific actions to make other specific actions easier, but I do have a problem with specific actions replacing other unrelated specific actions. I likewise have a problem with a challenge failing before it fails, in as much as playing it this way could have resulted in 4 failures foredooming things before the players really did anything.

I'm just failing to see how the system part of this encounter made it better. Isn't it enough to discover the problem, come to understand the dangers, and then take action to remedy the problem without a tally system?
 

Psssst hey Ioseth, come over here man....
Quietly quietly, just come in this alley here.

well, ya know, I can't get any 'skill challenges' for ya now, they just aren't any on the streets yet.
What? Yeah, I know, I know. But the lite version just doesn't give you the same thing man...not the full monty.

But what I can getcha is some of these 'challenges and stunts' from Iron Heroes. They should, ahhh, keep you goin' until you can get a fix of the real thing. Mmmm? Yeah people swear by 'em, they give you that cinematic high man! Not the same I know, but if you really need that next high right now I am the man to get one for you....


He he. He'll be back for more; I guarantee it!
 

GoodKingJayIII

First Post
Celebrim said:
I'm just failing to see how the system part of this encounter made it better. Isn't it enough to discover the problem, come to understand the dangers, and then take action to remedy the problem without a tally system?

I took the anecdote as describing a situation that might have otherwise been disorganized and disjointed. Announcing a skill challenge might break the scene for you, but for Harr it did the opposite.
 

GoodKingJayIII said:
I took the anecdote as describing a situation that might have otherwise been disorganized and disjointed. Announcing a skill challenge might break the scene for you, but for Harr it did the opposite.
Yeah that is how I took it as well, Harr describes his group as having previous problems with this sort of thing. I like the idea behind it an may use the system for a 3E pre-trial but you won't see me announcing 'skill challenge start' and 'skill challenge won'. Not our style but if I have a trial I will discuss with the players before how I am to run it.
But I like the base idea :)
 


Celebrim

Legend
GoodKingJayIII said:
I took the anecdote as describing a situation that might have otherwise been disorganized and disjointed. Announcing a skill challenge might break the scene for you, but for Harr it did the opposite.

Yeah, I can kinda see that. It certainly provides structure which is going to help if you are unsteady arbitrating non-combat challenges. And, if foreknowing that you can contribute changes the player's attitude from disinterest to interest, then this increases emmersion rather than reduces it.

But it is very much going to depend on the group. My background includes alot of horror roleplaying (CoC, Chill), so I don't feel I need to be told to be involved when combat isn't occurring. But if you have players whose background has convinced them that non-combat time is boring, then some sort of announcement acting as much as anything as a break with the past is going to help things.

But, even so, this is still designing solutions for problems I don't have.
 

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