Skill Chellenges - unfun?

[LostSoul]

By the way, count me in the rather large group who has trouble with skill challenges. LostSoul, you're still saying the exact same things over and over again with simple rephrasing. What you've said has no meaning without examples. Additionally, your comments on conflicts conflicts with the Duke example in the book. Why does the Duke oppose the PCs? And, if he does, why doesn't he just get his way? I'm curious how you would run that skill challenge in the context of your first post regarding antagonists and how they should be proactive. A proactive duke antagonist seems like an auto-fail.

It's hard to give examples because each group is going to have different goals - that's why I was avoiding it. Here's an example of a skill challenge that worked well for me: The Bloodrope

I'll give it a crack, starting off with the Duke.

First of all, there should be a reason why the Duke doesn't want to help out the PCs. This should be interesting to the players, as well, though that's part of NPC and adventure creation. I guess they go hand in hand.

Anyways... let's assume a simple motivation: the Duke doesn't want upstart mercenaries, graverobbers, and treasure hunters telling him what to do. He sees them as a threat to his authority, and this is a bigger deal to him than the goblin army.

The PCs are here because they think they need the help from the Duke to deal with the goblins and save the land; this is actually what drives the conflict, because he feels that he should be the one protecting his land. What do the people pay taxes for, if rogues can do his job for him, for free?

So we have a pretty sweet conflict in the mix. Nice.

If I was prepping this, I'd come up with a list of actions the Duke might try out.

-Challenge them with a legal issue. Maybe he wants everything they've found in their adventures; it doesn't belong to them, it belongs to him, and if he wants their help he should give it to him. If they agree, this could end the challenge right there.

-Act high and mighty and insulting, calling them names (like graverobbers), hoping that they will respond in kind - so then he can throw them out for insolence. Add a few failed rolls in here and he could potentially arrest them.

-If we have some successes, he'll try to give them support that he knows will fail. Maybe he'll conscript some drunkards, slaves who will run at the first chance, and criminals as his force. When this fails, it's all good, then he can send in his own army to clean up.

-Maybe one thing the Duke tries is that he demands they sign an oath to carry out his wishes. If they break it, they'll be outlaws. And if they sign it, the skill challenge can end without a roll. But maybe they negotiate it a bit and try to work out a better deal; failure might mean that he just tells them to get lost.

Blah blah blah. Basically I'm getting in the head of the Duke, trying to figure out what he wants (and remembering that what he wants is in direct conflict with the PC's goals), and pushing for it.

But if they make a success, it's a success, right? So the Duke has to go along with it. That doesn't mean he changes his mind - unless the DM thinks he would - but maybe he has a grudging respect, understands their authority, or whatever. Whatever the PC is trying to do, he succeeds.

This can make things really cool. Maybe the first roll is a Diplomacy roll to get the Duke to give them the troops. It succeeds. Okay, so he gives them crappy troops, like I said above.

Now: how do the PCs deal with it? Maybe they go back to the Duke and try to get him to provide better ones. (edit: Maybe they threaten him with force, bring up an obscure law, or just talk him into it.) Maybe they try to figure out what he wants and play to that. Maybe they don't even deal with the Duke; maybe they ignore the Duke and decide to whip the NPCs into shape.

Or maybe they get thrown out by the Duke early on and instead try to rally the people to pressure the Duke into dealing with the goblin problem. Failure there might mean a riot put down with force; success means what the PCs want, they get.


Does that make sense, or am I not getting my thoughts across?

edit: You see how the conflict between characters drives the skill challenge, and what each side does - how the characters are roleplayed - moves it along?

 

[Rel]

Initially I thought that I wouldn't like Skill Challenges. But after a bit of an adjustment in mindset and some actual play they have turned out to be useful and fun. I don't run them precisely by the book but it's not too far off.

The main thing is that I make sure the party has a goal in mind. A way they would like to see things come out. And the success or failures of their skill checks determine how close or far they are from that goal. Eventually things may go off course enough that that goal can never be reached. Along the way I simply narrate what happens as the result of their actions.

One thing I think is important in a fun Skill Challenge is to make the skill set dynamic. Have some skills become no longer useful while others open up. This can shift the focus from one PC to another over the course of the challenge and let everybody feel useful.

 

[Hambot]

This thread has given me some ideas.

I have a player who refuses to ever participate in skill challenges. If there is social interaction they just want to start fighting there way out of everything. It's annoying because I've been trying the Stalker0 Obsidian system but if only the other player is participating it feels like the whole thing is a flop.

I liked that duke example given above - how the Duke "attacks" the players with dialogue or threats, forcing him to do something. Refusing to reply would be a fail...

Also the "prepare the defenses" challenge sounds awesome - I'll break down at the end of the fight how many xp's worth of the total orc mob they got from properly preparing the villagers, and how much they got for hacking through the remaing orcs. If they get the same XP either way they win, but one is a much tougher fight it will be balanced and really encourages them to want to neuter as many orcs as possible via the skill challenge rolls before the PC's are fighting them hand to hand.

I'll give them another 2 gos - tring each of these ideas.

I want DMG 2 or DMG 3 to have a completely different "alternate skill challenge system" ie. "we screwed up the first one so bad so here is one that works and is actually fun".

 

[Infiniti2000]

Does that make sense, or am I not getting my thoughts across?

That particular example still seems a little farfetched, or maybe contrived is a better word, but I do see where you're coming from. Regarding the Duke example, the conflict you outline just doesn't work for me.

edit: You see how the conflict between characters drives the skill challenge, and what each side does - how the characters are roleplayed - moves it along?

I do, or I think I do. But, I thought so before, too, and a miserable skill challenge or two later and I've just about given up. The ones I tried were an interrogation (based on the book recommendation) and the one with the NPC in the tomb of H1. The interrogation was terrible. The tomb wasn't great either, but it worked out a little better because it was so well prepared.

I have zero confidence that I could run, much less create, a well prepared skill challenge. I wouldn't even attempt one off the cuff. I guess it just takes persistence and practice, but that really sucks compared to everything else in D&D that's so easy to learn. I really wish WotC made an audio and/or video clip showing several skill challenges in actual use.

 

[KlassyReborn]

ok the general feeling i'm getting from people, and correct me if i'm wrong, is that people are not a fan of skill challenges because they don't know how to work one. Honestly i'm in a regular 4e group that utilizes skills challenges all the time. The truth is, you have to have SOME structure to your game to use them. For DMs that don't plan at all, they're useless to you because you don't know how it should end. I enjoy skills challenges, why? Because it's not just hack and slash. And if there are concoquences to you failing a skills challenge, i have some words for you: "Welcome to D&D!" For every action you take, there will be two or three reactions just to get back at you.

 

[Rel]

ok the general feeling i'm getting from people, and correct me if i'm wrong, is that people are not a fan of skill challenges because they don't know how to work one. Honestly i'm in a regular 4e group that utilizes skills challenges all the time. The truth is, you have to have SOME structure to your game to use them. For DMs that don't plan at all, they're useless to you because you don't know how it should end.

I think you're off base in a few ways here.

First I think people are justified in some suspicion about this mechanic because the implementation was so flawed in how it was initially presented in the DMG. I think since people were presented with an unworkable system that it's hardly surprising that many are finding them difficult to implement.

In terms of requiring structure (I assume you mean pre-planning and preparation) I will agree that it helps. But I think that skill challenges can be improvised. Moreover I think they should be able to be improvised. If they cannot then I think it is a weakness in the system. If I can grab the stats out of the Monster Manual and be ready to run an improvised combat encounter in two minutes then why can't I do the same for a non-combat encounter? (In point of fact I run them loosely enough that I don't think I'd have much problem with that.)

 

[Infiniti2000]

KlassyReborn illustrates why skill challenges are so hard. KlassyReborn tells us to pre-plan and someone else (LostSoul) explicitly tells us not to pre-plan. So, which is it? A combination of both? I think we all relish the concept of a non-hack n' slash mechanic, but it's not easy for us. Maybe we all just have to find our own way in running skill challenges, but I for one haven't been able to do it successfully.

 

[LostSoul]

I don't think you should pre-plan the outcome.

 

[Nytmare]

It's funny, I always used to push this [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Comedy-Improvisation-Charna-Halpern/dp/1566080037"]book[/ame] and no one could ever figure out why I thought it had anything to do with DMing. Hopefully it'll be more useful to people now that the gaming zeitgeist has really turned the corner.

It is apparent however that there's a bit of a disconnect for people, and it would be really helpful if WOTC released a handful of "here are some skill challenges from our games" for everyone to chew through. I haven't listened to the different game podcasts that have been floating around, are there any good skill challenges in any of those? Have there been any good skill challenges in any of the play by post games on Enworld?

 

[Skywalker]

This is a great blog for making Skill Challenges more fun: Skill Challenges Archive - At Will

Here are some of my own suggestions at some more alternative uses for Skill Challenges: gametime: [D&D4e] Alternative Uses for Skill Challenges