Skill Combat - quick combat resolution

[Saeviomagy]

I imagine that will happen if you don't take steps to prevent it.

The problem is that attacking a PC with 4 or 5 monsters at a time will be fine most of the time, but every so often the planets will align, everyone will hit or crit, and the guy will die. I'm not sure what steps you can take to avoid that without breaking the rules or fudging dice?

I want it to reward players unevenly, so that's good. I'm not so sure that it will take a very, very long time to declare actions; it's possible, I guess, but I don't see it going back and forth that often.

Do you have an example of a situation that could turn out like that?

"X and Y flank you"
"I move out of the flank"
repeat.

I mean that's a trivial example, and you're more likely to have a string of more and more elaborate maneuvers to avoid the inevitable, but it's still going to end when the DM says "right, that's enough, you're flanked and there's nothing you can do about it" or everyone gets bored.

You can't do what you can't do. If you're a Fighter it doesn't matter how you describe your action, if the hobgoblin fighting you doesn't move and doesn't hit someone else, you're not getting an OA or your Combat Challenge.

The problem is that anytime ANYONE moves, the fighter can say "Oh, but he was next to me! OA!". I was perhaps exaggerating with combat challenge, but it's still going to come up more often than when there's a board there to show you that you're out of range.

If that happens, the PCs will get dogpiled and killed, just like you said!

In the first example (rogue and fighter vs. hobgoblin), the rogue saying "I hit it with my dagger" would have missed, since that's an attack against AC instead of Ref, and he wouldn't have had the +2 for flanking. What's more, the rogue can't say, "I flank him and use Deft Strike" because "Deft Strike" doesn't mean anything. No one can respond to "Deft Strike" the way they can respond to "I stab him with my stiletto through a weak point in his armour".

Well, first off, people are unlikely to take deft strike, because deft strike is the power that allows movement with an attack. Once you've made positioning this vague, the value of a 2 square move becomes pretty tiny compared with the other at-will options.

And what stops the rogue saying "I flank him and stab him through a weak point in his armor" each round (apart from every monster on the board saying "I take an OA!")? It's the same problem, just with different words.

I'm not saying that your system is particularly bad for this, just that it's not actually solving it.

 

[LostSoul]

The problem is that attacking a PC with 4 or 5 monsters at a time will be fine most of the time, but every so often the planets will align, everyone will hit or crit, and the guy will die. I'm not sure what steps you can take to avoid that without breaking the rules or fudging dice?

The first step would be avoiding those dangerous situations.
The second step would be taking defensive actions - like running around a corner or ducking beneath something or someone else.
The third step would be killing them first or otherwise taking some action that invalidates theirs. ("I cast magic missle, hitting the hand that's holding the arrow, making him drop it.")

"X and Y flank you"
"I move out of the flank"
repeat.

There's nothing to negotiate there. "I move out of the flank" is the action, and we roll dice to see if it works or not. If Z rolls higher than X or Y (since it takes two to flank), he's not flanked.

The problem is that anytime ANYONE moves, the fighter can say "Oh, but he was next to me! OA!". I was perhaps exaggerating with combat challenge, but it's still going to come up more often than when there's a board there to show you that you're out of range.

He can say that, but that is the sort of thing that should be clear when you're declaring actions. That's one of the reasons you need to be specific when declaring actions, one of the reasons why "I stab him with my sword" isn't going to cut it.

I also plan on using minis!

Well, first off, people are unlikely to take deft strike, because deft strike is the power that allows movement with an attack. Once you've made positioning this vague, the value of a 2 square move becomes pretty tiny compared with the other at-will options.

That's true. I actually meant the Rogue At-Will that hits Ref instead of AC. Whoops. I guess Deft Strike would allow you to do something like dart in and out of cover, or reach someone normally out of range.

And what stops the rogue saying "I flank him and stab him through a weak point in his armor" each round (apart from every monster on the board saying "I take an OA!")? It's the same problem, just with different words.

Nothing. However, how each monster responds to that attack is going to be different. It wouldn't make much sense against an ooze, for example. Against a hobgoblin I might say something like, "As you stab into his exposed underarm he pins your weapon arm with his." Against an orc berserker I might say, "He takes the hit, trusting to his armour, and grabs your arm, holding you there."

In the next round, if those monster actions succeeded, the Rogue can't say "I flank him and stab him through a weak point in his armour." Why not? Because his arm is pinned or grabbed. In the orc example he might say something like, "I twist my dagger in his gut" (assuming the Rogue hit), or something else. Who knows. And the orc's action might be "He chops your exposed arm off."

 

[DragoonLance]

So what would you do using this system with the social player that has no real desire to go beyond "I shoot with my bow?" Now granted for this player in my group, 4e has made them step up and do that much, in our previous GURPS games they played a pacifist that just sat out during combat. At least there isn't anymore book reading going on during play...

 

[Saeviomagy]

The first step would be avoiding those dangerous situations.
The second step would be taking defensive actions - like running around a corner or ducking beneath something or someone else.
The third step would be killing them first or otherwise taking some action that invalidates theirs. ("I cast magic missle, hitting the hand that's holding the arrow, making him drop it.")

That's not the problem I refer to.
You, as DM, target the bloodied party rogue with 4 creatures that are 2 levels below him. Normally they'd have a hard time hitting him: you might get a couple of hits in, but this round the dice are on fire.

This time, however, the first foe hits. The second foe hits and the rogue drops.

Now normally you'd make the other creatures go for someone else. Striking a downed opponent is reserved for special occasions and grudges. Under this system, however, the third and fourth foes have no recourse but to continue attacking the rogue. They both hit, he dies.

There's nothing to negotiate there. "I move out of the flank" is the action, and we roll dice to see if it works or not. If Z rolls higher than X or Y (since it takes two to flank), he's not flanked.

I think I'm misunderstanding how you're handling movement: what stops the two opponents from declaring that they step back into the flank?

Alternately, what stops the DM from waiting until the players declare their actions, then declaring a flank which is impossible to escape?

He can say that, but that is the sort of thing that should be clear when you're declaring actions. That's one of the reasons you need to be specific when declaring actions, one of the reasons why "I stab him with my sword" isn't going to cut it.

I also plan on using minis!

Ah, that wasn't clear. That alleviates pretty much all of the positional issues.

That's true. I actually meant the Rogue At-Will that hits Ref instead of AC. Whoops. I guess Deft Strike would allow you to do something like dart in and out of cover, or reach someone normally out of range.

Yeah, you can do interesting things like 2-step into a flank with your defender then shift away out of range of melee reprisal.

Nothing. However, how each monster responds to that attack is going to be different. It wouldn't make much sense against an ooze, for example. Against a hobgoblin I might say something like, "As you stab into his exposed underarm he pins your weapon arm with his." Against an orc berserker I might say, "He takes the hit, trusting to his armour, and grabs your arm, holding you there."

In the next round, if those monster actions succeeded, the Rogue can't say "I flank him and stab him through a weak point in his armour." Why not? Because his arm is pinned or grabbed. In the orc example he might say something like, "I twist my dagger in his gut" (assuming the Rogue hit), or something else. Who knows. And the orc's action might be "He chops your exposed arm off."

I guess I'm just really unsure of how much of the 4e rules are actually going to be used here: It seems like there's a massive amount of leeway being given to allow what would currently be interrupts and the like: is there any guidelines on how many reactions one is allowed to take in a round?

 

[LostSoul]

So what would you do using this system with the social player that has no real desire to go beyond "I shoot with my bow?" Now granted for this player in my group, 4e has made them step up and do that much, in our previous GURPS games they played a pacifist that just sat out during combat. At least there isn't anymore book reading going on during play...

Either the player would step up or stop playing. It's not for everyone!

 

[LostSoul]

Now normally you'd make the other creatures go for someone else. Striking a downed opponent is reserved for special occasions and grudges. Under this system, however, the third and fourth foes have no recourse but to continue attacking the rogue. They both hit, he dies.

Combat is deadly. I guess my answer is that the player should realize that if 4 guys are aiming for you, you (and your friends) should try to do something to avoid it, and bemoan the fact that you ended up in that situation to begin with.

I don't know if I wrote it in this version, but before fighting actually starts the players decide how they want to resolve it. Normal rules or these. That may help mitigate the deadliness.

I may want to add in an "abort your action for total defense" option after the dice are rolled. That would mean that, if all those 4 guys rolled and hit you, you can abort your declared action for a chance to do something totally defensive and re-roll with the +2 bonus for total defense.

I think I'm misunderstanding how you're handling movement: what stops the two opponents from declaring that they step back into the flank?

Alternately, what stops the DM from waiting until the players declare their actions, then declaring a flank which is impossible to escape?

You're right - what's going on here is that I'm using an unwritten rule! Awesome, I would have missed that.

I'm not sure how to state it, but it's something along the lines of, "When two actions are in direct conflict - We flank you vs. I move out of the flank - the order the actions are resolved in determines who is successful."

That may not work! "I chop you in the face vs. I block your axe with my shield and cut you". I will need to think about this. Nice work!

Yeah, you can do interesting things like 2-step into a flank with your defender then shift away out of range of melee reprisal.

I guess I'm just really unsure of how much of the 4e rules are actually going to be used here: It seems like there's a massive amount of leeway being given to allow what would currently be interrupts and the like: is there any guidelines on how many reactions one is allowed to take in a round?

This is a great point. What I meant by the "If you can do it, you can do it" line was that you can't normally do things that you couldn't do in a normal combat round - you can't get in two attacks unless you have Twin Strike or something that allows it.

This can step on the toes of some powers, though, like you pointed out with Deft Strike. "I dart in and out behind the pillar and cast Magic Missile" seems like something a normal guy could do... I guess the answer is that it relies heavily on the DM to make judgement calls. (That was a goal I was shooting for.)

I'll need to make sure I understand the powers that PCs have and respond accordingly. Deft Strike may allow a PC to dart in and out from behind total cover without the NPCs getting a chance to attack, for example.

Thanks for the replies! You've made some good points and given me a number of things to think about. I would have repped you earlier but it seems I must spread some around.

 

[Garthanos]

So what would you do using this system with the social player that has no real desire to go beyond "I shoot with my bow?" Now granted for this player in my group, 4e has made them step up and do that much, in our previous GURPS games they played a pacifist that just sat out during combat. At least there isn't anymore book reading going on during play...

I havent run in to that but I wonder if something like the Princess build would do for the player... http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...t-princess-how-abuse-warlord.html#post5142064

They could be very much a pacifist ... dodging behind allies and screaming OMG or momentarily feinting etc...Effectively handing out extra attacks and boons to there allies primarily via heroic luck.

I guess it still requires the player to work the combat... so its not a pass on the game play.

 

[DragoonLance]

Yeah, she is the defacto group healer, in our first 4e game she played a bard, and she's currently a semi-pacifist cleric. She's getting better about contributing but she's really not there for the game as much as the social interaction.

 

[LostSoul]

I did some thinking thanks to Saeviomagy's observations. Here is what I came up with:

• Step 3. Declare Actions
  • An action must be clear and describe what the character is doing.
  • You cannot use a statement of an outcome for your action. "I flank him" doesn't cut it, you have to describe how your character flanks the other.
• Step 7. Resolve Actions
  • Skill checks are resolved in the usual manner
  • If the resolution of one action invalidates an action that has yet to be resolved - that is, the character is physically unable to carry through with their action - the invalid action is lost.

I'm also pretty sure I'm going to add in the "abort your action for total defense" option. That'll work like this:

Once you see the dice rolls, you can decide to give up your stated action and take a completely defensive one. You roll again, and your roll sets the DC for any actions that your action defends against.​

That'll do two things: It'll keep players from having to worry about taking defensive actions until the dice are rolled - making them more proactive; and it'll allow someone who gets jumped by 4 attacks to get a second chance at life.

There's also something else that needs to be added - getting a +2 bonus if your action succeeds and can then be applied to your next related action. I might let it stack. This is the "positioning" benefit - flanking, failing and falling prone, reading your opponent, testing his defenses, etc. I need to think about that some more.

 

[Alex319]

And the orc's action might be "He chops your exposed arm off."

Well, he would still only do the regular amount of damage, wouldn't he? (Or am I misunderstanding something?)

(concerning Combat Challenge)

He can say that, but that is the sort of thing that should be clear when you're declaring actions. That's one of the reasons you need to be specific when declaring actions, one of the reasons why "I stab him with my sword" isn't going to cut it.

It seems like that could get tedious if basically every time the fighter does his action he also has to say "oh, and by the way, I maneuver so that if he attacks someone else or tries to move away I can hit him, and if someone else tries to move past me I can hit him" every round in order to be eligible to use OAs and Combat Challenge.

--

Another thing; can someone declare multiple actions in a round? For example let's say in the rogue example, after the rogue's arm was pinned the rogue said "I wriggle out of the pin and then stab the guy in the back." Is that two separate rolls (an acrobatics roll or something to get out and then an attack roll) or just one roll? How does that work with the initiative? Can the character even do this? Basically, are characters still bound by the "move, minor, and standard" action limit? (Even if they were the situation above could still arise, because getting out of a grab is a move action.)