Skills

[B.T.]

In another thread--now locked due to flaming--Charwoman Gene made the remark that Saga Edition had "shredded the skills system, just like 4e [sic] and that was a horrible crime against gaming."

What are your personal opinions on the SE skill set? I think that the idea is sound, but I feel that they cut out/merged too many of the skills.

 

[Mistwell]

You can read the preview article on skills here:

Saga Edition Preview 2

 

[ValhallaGH]

What are your personal opinions on the SE skill set?

For Star Wars, it works very, very well. For other settings and genres it doesn't work as well.

Good luck avoiding a flame war.

 

[drothgery]

I think it's great, and they didn't merge enough skills (climb, jump, and swim should have been rolled into Athletics; yes, that would have left only one Strength skill, but it would actually be useful enough to be trained in). And in cinematic/high heroic RPGs (like any Star Wars RPG, or D&D), I think a skill list about the size of Saga's (or 4e's) is about right, and the trained/untrained setup with fixed advancement is much preferred over classic d20 style micro-managing skill points (which in practice resolves skills down to the states of no ranks, 1 rank, just enough ranks to qualify for a prestige class, enough ranks that all tasks auto-succeed, and maxed out; anything else is the domain of delibrately unobtomized characters).

 

[Crothian]

I think it works well in Star Wars. My complaint is not with the skills but that one doesn't have enough feats since that's the best way to modify skills.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

I love the streamlined skill system in SWSE, and have come to agree with the point of view that drothgery espouses about rolling Climb, Jump, and Swim into Athletics. I especially love the fact that skill point were shown the door, as it makes creating and leveling up a character a lot easier. And given the "jack of all trades" mold that the iconic heroes of Star Wars are from, it works very well indeed for a space opera styled game.

I will confess to being initially leery of a single Force skill (too many memories of Jedi in WEG's d6 version trumping everyone else with just three skills), but Rodney and company made it work and work very well indeed, and as one player of mine put it when we swapped our existing RCR campaign to the new rules, "I feel like I'm actually playing a Jedi."

Now I'm not saying it's 100% perfect, as threads abound on the WotC boards about how Skill Focus (especially in Use the Force) becomes problematic at low levels since Defenses haven't had a chance to catch up yet.

 

[B.T.]

I think it's great, and they didn't merge enough skills (climb, jump, and swim should have been rolled into Athletics; yes, that would have left only one Strength skill, but it would actually be useful enough to be trained in). And in cinematic/high heroic RPGs (like any Star Wars RPG, or D&D), I think a skill list about the size of Saga's (or 4e's) is about right, and the trained/untrained setup with fixed advancement is much preferred over classic d20 style micro-managing skill points (which in practice resolves skills down to the states of no ranks, 1 rank, just enough ranks to qualify for a prestige class, enough ranks that all tasks auto-succeed, and maxed out; anything else is the domain of delibrately unobtomized characters).

While I agree that SWSE didn't merge enough skills, I feel that it went too far in cutting down on the number of skills. This works in the Star Wars universe, but it irritates me on some level because I like taking systems and tinkering with them and using them in different settings. (That's no fault of the game, really.)

I do, however, feel that 4e went overboard in merging skills, especially when several of them are just Knowledge skills from 3e.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I do, however, feel that 4e went overboard in merging skills, especially when several of them are just Knowledge skills from 3e.

The fault with 4E isn't the skills they have (not much, anyway), it's the skills they don't have. The massive areas of a role-playing game that occasionally need mechanical adjudication have no more support that simple ability checks are where I find great fault with 4E. Saga actually covers most of those, though, so I'm fine with it for cinematic heroism.

 

[B.T.]

The fault with 4E isn't the skills they have (not much, anyway), it's the skills they don't have. The massive areas of a role-playing game that occasionally need mechanical adjudication have no more support that simple ability checks are where I find great fault with 4E. Saga actually covers most of those, though, so I'm fine with it for cinematic heroism.

What are some of the trouble spots you've noticed? One of the most egregious errors, to me, was not introducing a concrete way to track opponents. (Unless I just missed that while perusing the books.)

 

[ValhallaGH]

What are some of the trouble spots you've noticed? One of the most egregious errors, to me, was not introducing a concrete way to track opponents. (Unless I just missed that while perusing the books.)

I guess you did miss tracking, then. It's listed as a function of the Perception skill, with DCs determined by plot (i.e. the DM).

In my games the lack of the ability to measure, if they craft a sturdy barricade, how quickly they can tunnel through a collapsed passage, how well they sail in a storm, and the impressiveness of a performance, are all serious lacks. Sure, I can substitute ability checks (Int & Str, Str & Con, Wis, Cha) but that doesn't really represent backgrounds, hobbies, and supplemental training at all.

As written 4e covers the classic Dungeon Crawl skills. It does, but just barely. What it's totally lacking are the skills that can prevent or propel the party's bizarrely clever schemes, or support a less combative gameplay that still has meaningful die rolls and deep skill usage.