Re: Up the ante...
mkletch said:
There are so many creatures with multi-die and multi-ability ability drain, who cares if your character has 300 hit points? You have 25 Dex, and are taking 2d4 Dex damage per (touch usually) attack, twice a round. It's simply like you have 4th level, 25 hit points and bad armor all over again and are facing a creature with a falchion. Except now, your combat ability decreases as you take damage. You almost need a ring that casts restoration on you every round or something.
I see what you're saying here, but I wonder if that's part of the point. I don't think the goal was for epic level monsters to be treated in the same vein as "traditional" monsters. I think that even when epic-level characters face these things, they are supposed to be worried.
At this point (and the more I think about it, the more I think I may be a little off in my initial post), perhaps CRs need to be changed a little to reflect the fact that epic monsters are never expected to be base challenges. Or, perhaps CRs for epic monsters better reflect them being a reasonable campaign threat for epic PCs... you know, a reasonable adversary/archvillain/boss encounter...
mkletch said:
The thing that really ruined the ELH for me was DR. There are only like 15 creatures with damage reduction that you can bypass with a non-epic weapon out of more than 60 monsters. Considering that a simple +6 weapon is worth half of the total wealth of a 22nd level character (per the table), it is safe to assume that this commodity is fairly rare until 30th level; and well beyond the resources of NPCs under 35th-40th level, per their table. Epic items, especially weapons, have been reduced to a 'must have' commodity, just as +4 and +5 weapons are simple commodities in non-epic high level play. How disappointing. The Penetrate Damage Reduction feat mitigates this, but is reduced to a 'must have' feat for anybody that ever considers using a weapon - so much for lots of feat choices.
I don't think that most epic characters are going to be fighting a lot of epic monsters. I think an epic monster encounter ideally occurs rarely for characters in the early levels of epic play. Ideally, epic PCs should be facing high CR traditional monsters and NPCs as they make their way to those first few epic encounters.
And even for epic PCs, I think an epic monster should be a big deal that requires that they put out all of their energy and resources. Yes, a +6 weapon is expensive, but I don't see why it should be expected that an epic PC automatically expect to have it to use against an epic monster with a */+6. Frankly, I think that at the lower end of epic play, PCs should expect to really be challenged and have to fight to beat lower level epic monsters. They should also be required to get involved in some real role-playing research when preparing to deal with such beings.
mkletch said:
A single epic monster of any sort is just too much for most parties to handle, up to even low level epic play. And considering that these things are wandering all over the place, and epic level characters and epic weapons are rare at best, how did they not wipe out all life ages ago. And don't tell me the gods could do a thing, since they only can hit +4 or +5 DR creatures and hardly do 5-20 points of damage per attack after the DR, except for Thor or on critical hits. Good thing deities are immune to ability loss....
I think this (and it could be argued that everything I've said is) a campaign driven issue. IMC, there are epic level monsters. Most, if not all of them, are either trapped somewhere, dead, or not interested in conflict. When my PCs get to the point when they can confront the lowest level ones, they will never deal with more than two within a four to five game period... and that's if they really spend time getting ready for such encounters.
Again, I don't think that epic encounters are intended to be similar to non-epic, so it doesn't bother me that one low-level epic encounter may prove difficult. I do think, though, that perhaps the use of CR should be reevaluated for epic levels as either ideal levels for "boss-type" monsters or increased by four or five.
mkletch said:
Hey, don't get me wrong. I love the 'feel' of the epic book, but the implementation requires just silly-stupid power levels, both in magic items and character abilities. How one makes the transition from non-epic to epic level play is a mystery to me. It would be like skipping seven grades in school, and going right from 3rd grade to 11th grade - completely blown away unless your party is dripping with artifacts. I bought it as a DM resource, to make custom high-level opponents, but the utility is limited even for that. And you thought the CR system broke down at 10th-15th level. Try 25th.
Fletch!
IMC, the transition begins at around 17th level. The PCs begin to learn more about what's out there, have a lot of time and resources to create magic items, research current and possibly new spells, and look into acquiring lost minor artifacts. They have the means to acquire vast amounts of information and reasonably dependable allies.
The PCs (they are equivalent to a 20th level party since there are six of them and one is slightly lower level than the others) IMC have already faced two low level epic NPCs, a CR 24 Death Knight and a 21st level Cleric. The Wizard in the party cast
maze on the Death Knight, taking him out of combat. The fact that the cleric suspected an attack is the ONLY thing that kept her alive and allowed her to escape. When the Death Knight returned, the PCs beat the tar out of it quickly. Unfortunately, the Cleric had two prepared
miracles and resurrection and brought the Death Knight back (spending loads of xp to do so).
It can be done, but I think it requires a degree of real involved preparation by the DM and an understanding of the DM's world and what s/he hopes to accomplish with the PCs.
