Elder-Basilisk
First Post
I'm trying to figure out if slashing fury is a beneficial feat:
The basic premise of my caution is that the heavy attack penalty may eliminate the feat's benefit.
The simplest way to do the comparison would be to compare it to the other easy way to trade attack bonus for damage: Power Attack.
In the case of a standard action attack, taking -5/-10 is useful (in comparison to power attacking for 5 with a one-handed weapon) when the chance to hit with the second attack times your damage with the second attack is greater than 5 which seems useful. When compared to a two handed weapon, it seems that the damage with the second attack times you chance to hit would need to be greater than 10. Again, that is likely to be most of the time. In short, it seems that as long as your one-handed weapon is doing 28 damage per hit, you're better off as long as you have a 25% or better chance to hit on the second attack. For a two-handed weapon, you would need to be doing somewhere around 40-48 damage per hit for it to be worth it at a 25% chance to hit with the -10 attack. If we figure that a typical 15th level character is likely to be attacking a a base of +31 or so for around 28 (one handed) or 35 (two-handed), before Power Attack, it will usually be a good idea as long as the opponent's AC is 37 or less (one handed weapon) or 34 or less (two handed weapon).
So, how about the limitations of this analysis?
1. It fails to take bracers of might into account. That would make the number 7 for a one-handed weapon and 12 for a two-handed weapon.
2. The more serious limitation: it fails to take situations where Power Attack of less than 5 is optimal. Given the difficulties in determining optimal Power Attack (an accurate analysis will require knowledge of the target's hit points as well as their armor class). That said, it doesn't help to know that slashing fury is a better deal than Power Attack for 5 or more when Power Attack for 5 or more is a bad deal. (When power attack for more than 5 is a good idea, you can just use slashing fury and power attack together for improved results).
3 Slashing fury will become a better deal, the more buffing the character gets. Recitation, hero's feast, bardsong, righteous wrath of the faithful, flanking, etc, will all make slashing fury a good deal at higher armor classes.
So it looks like slashing fury is often a good deal for fighter types when making a standard attack. How about a full attack?
At this point, there are a couple ways to look at it.
First, one could compare it to Power Attack again. If full attacking with Power Attack for 5, you net 5/7 points per hit (one-handed) and 10/12 points per hit (two-handed). At 15th level, a character will have three attacks base (four with haste). Consequently, slashing fury will be a good deal when the chance to hit with the extra attack times the damage is equal to (extra PA damage times the chance to hit one each attack). If chance to hit is C, base damage is D, and power attack damage is P, slashing fury is a good deal when:
CD > CP +(C-.25)P + (C-.5)P
with haste, CD > 2CP + (C-.25)P + (C-.5)P
at 16th+lvl with haste: CD > 2CP +(C-.25)P + (C-.5)P +(C-.75)P
So
CD > 2.25 CP
haste CD > 3.25 CP
at lvl 16+: CD > 3.5 CP
So, plugging the numbers we've got as our baseline in (28 damage per hit or 35 damage per hit=D and 5/7 or 10/12=P
15h level, no haste:
one-handed 28C > 11C
two handed 35C > 22C
15th level, haste:
one handed 28C > 16.25C
two handed 35C > 32.5 C
16th level, haste:
one handed 28C > 17.5C
two handed 35C > 35C
So, the long and the short of it: slashing fury looks to be a much better deal than Power Attack for one-handed weapon wielder, but for two-handed weapons, it is only better than Power Attack if you are either 15th level or are not getting a haste attack. At 16h level with haste, you are just as good off Power Attacking for 5 as you are using slashing fury. If you have Armbands of Might, you are actually better off Power Attacking.
Limitations of the analysis:
1. I don't account for the possibility of using slashing fury and Power Attack together. If you would ordinarily Power Attack for more than 5, using Power attack for N-5 (where N is how much you would ordinarily power attack for) seems like it should net you an extra (best chance to hit)(Power Attack damage) on a full round attack.
Consequently, Slashing fury is still possibly good for level 16+ two handed weapon wielders if they would power attack for more than 5.
2. The assumed non-power attack damage of the weapon hit has a big effect on the advantageousness. With a one-handed weapon, it starts being advantageous at 11 damage/hit (15th level, no haste) or 17.5 damage/hit (level 16+ with haste). (Both numbers go by about 20% if you have Armbands of Might). With a two-handed weapon, slashing fury is a good idea even at level 16+ with haste as long as you do more than 35 points of damage per attack without Power Attacking.
2.5 By reducing damage/hit, DR that your weapon does not defeat dramatically reduces the effectiveness of slashing fury.
3. This is using the mathematically simple average damage/round analysis which, while easy to do in the absence of information about the foe's hit points, can be misleading. A discrete probability analysis that measured effectiveness in the chance of dropping a particular foe in a set number of rounds, would actually reflect the effectiveness of the feat better. (I have, for example, found that performing this kind of analysis with Power Attack consistently indicates that it is a good idea to power attack for more than an average damage/round analysis would suggest).
Does this analysis jive with peoples' experience with slashing fury?
The basic premise of my caution is that the heavy attack penalty may eliminate the feat's benefit.
The simplest way to do the comparison would be to compare it to the other easy way to trade attack bonus for damage: Power Attack.
In the case of a standard action attack, taking -5/-10 is useful (in comparison to power attacking for 5 with a one-handed weapon) when the chance to hit with the second attack times your damage with the second attack is greater than 5 which seems useful. When compared to a two handed weapon, it seems that the damage with the second attack times you chance to hit would need to be greater than 10. Again, that is likely to be most of the time. In short, it seems that as long as your one-handed weapon is doing 28 damage per hit, you're better off as long as you have a 25% or better chance to hit on the second attack. For a two-handed weapon, you would need to be doing somewhere around 40-48 damage per hit for it to be worth it at a 25% chance to hit with the -10 attack. If we figure that a typical 15th level character is likely to be attacking a a base of +31 or so for around 28 (one handed) or 35 (two-handed), before Power Attack, it will usually be a good idea as long as the opponent's AC is 37 or less (one handed weapon) or 34 or less (two handed weapon).
So, how about the limitations of this analysis?
1. It fails to take bracers of might into account. That would make the number 7 for a one-handed weapon and 12 for a two-handed weapon.
2. The more serious limitation: it fails to take situations where Power Attack of less than 5 is optimal. Given the difficulties in determining optimal Power Attack (an accurate analysis will require knowledge of the target's hit points as well as their armor class). That said, it doesn't help to know that slashing fury is a better deal than Power Attack for 5 or more when Power Attack for 5 or more is a bad deal. (When power attack for more than 5 is a good idea, you can just use slashing fury and power attack together for improved results).
3 Slashing fury will become a better deal, the more buffing the character gets. Recitation, hero's feast, bardsong, righteous wrath of the faithful, flanking, etc, will all make slashing fury a good deal at higher armor classes.
So it looks like slashing fury is often a good deal for fighter types when making a standard attack. How about a full attack?
At this point, there are a couple ways to look at it.
First, one could compare it to Power Attack again. If full attacking with Power Attack for 5, you net 5/7 points per hit (one-handed) and 10/12 points per hit (two-handed). At 15th level, a character will have three attacks base (four with haste). Consequently, slashing fury will be a good deal when the chance to hit with the extra attack times the damage is equal to (extra PA damage times the chance to hit one each attack). If chance to hit is C, base damage is D, and power attack damage is P, slashing fury is a good deal when:
CD > CP +(C-.25)P + (C-.5)P
with haste, CD > 2CP + (C-.25)P + (C-.5)P
at 16th+lvl with haste: CD > 2CP +(C-.25)P + (C-.5)P +(C-.75)P
So
CD > 2.25 CP
haste CD > 3.25 CP
at lvl 16+: CD > 3.5 CP
So, plugging the numbers we've got as our baseline in (28 damage per hit or 35 damage per hit=D and 5/7 or 10/12=P
15h level, no haste:
one-handed 28C > 11C
two handed 35C > 22C
15th level, haste:
one handed 28C > 16.25C
two handed 35C > 32.5 C
16th level, haste:
one handed 28C > 17.5C
two handed 35C > 35C
So, the long and the short of it: slashing fury looks to be a much better deal than Power Attack for one-handed weapon wielder, but for two-handed weapons, it is only better than Power Attack if you are either 15th level or are not getting a haste attack. At 16h level with haste, you are just as good off Power Attacking for 5 as you are using slashing fury. If you have Armbands of Might, you are actually better off Power Attacking.
Limitations of the analysis:
1. I don't account for the possibility of using slashing fury and Power Attack together. If you would ordinarily Power Attack for more than 5, using Power attack for N-5 (where N is how much you would ordinarily power attack for) seems like it should net you an extra (best chance to hit)(Power Attack damage) on a full round attack.
Consequently, Slashing fury is still possibly good for level 16+ two handed weapon wielders if they would power attack for more than 5.
2. The assumed non-power attack damage of the weapon hit has a big effect on the advantageousness. With a one-handed weapon, it starts being advantageous at 11 damage/hit (15th level, no haste) or 17.5 damage/hit (level 16+ with haste). (Both numbers go by about 20% if you have Armbands of Might). With a two-handed weapon, slashing fury is a good idea even at level 16+ with haste as long as you do more than 35 points of damage per attack without Power Attacking.
2.5 By reducing damage/hit, DR that your weapon does not defeat dramatically reduces the effectiveness of slashing fury.
3. This is using the mathematically simple average damage/round analysis which, while easy to do in the absence of information about the foe's hit points, can be misleading. A discrete probability analysis that measured effectiveness in the chance of dropping a particular foe in a set number of rounds, would actually reflect the effectiveness of the feat better. (I have, for example, found that performing this kind of analysis with Power Attack consistently indicates that it is a good idea to power attack for more than an average damage/round analysis would suggest).
Does this analysis jive with peoples' experience with slashing fury?
Thought it was a newfangled barbarian feat..
