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Slavery and evil

JackGiantkiller

First Post
If alignment is absolute, is slavery evil in places where it is legal? If so, then the majority of human historical figures are evil by D&D's standards.

If not...then slavery is just lawful or chaotic, and depends on its legal status for the definition..but that seems way subjective for an absolute objective system.

Opinions?
 

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JackGiantkiller

First Post
What i mean is, in D&D we supposed ly have an alignment system that is objective and non-relative. A given action is always evil, regardless of societal perception. A person can be detected as evil, affected by spells on the basis of their alignment, etc. What are people here's opinions on whether slavers and slave owners detect as evil, for instance, and why or why not? See above for why it interests me.
 

Crothian

First Post
It would still depend on how the campaign world was set up. One could easily to it as good or evil or place dependant.
 

JackGiantkiller

First Post
Obviously. So...each campaign makes a differing, relative moral judgment about whether specific acts are good or evil...and this is then taken as the moral absolute standard *for that campaign*?
 

This is a pretty touchy subject, but here is my two copper on the issue. Slavery isn't going to be "Good" under any circumstance, since it impedes the freedom of others and even at its best can be somewhat degrading and dehumanizing.

Slavery is likely to be, but not always Evil, since it can easily lead to abuses and degrading treatment of the slaves. If the slaves are treated humanely, like one would treat any free man, except they are not free to leave their job, then I would call it Neutral on the moral axis, especially if the slaves had certain rights and protections (making them more akin to indentured servants from colonial history).

Slavery, however is also usually a Lawful act. In a typical fantasy setting it is a a definite and strong social structure, that in many civilizations acts as an underpinning element, by providing a working class that does all the labor. Perpetuating slavery would be Lawful since it upholds the expectations of society. If slavery is illegal in the setting, but it is still practiced, like providing an illicit labor or military force (or even more unsavory uses), then slavery is a chaotic act.

Thus, if the slaves are relatively well treated and legally protected in a society where their labor is needed and supports the general social fabric, I'd call it a Lawful Neutral practice. Example: 15th Century Mamluks in Egypt.

If the slaves are poorly treated, abused, and treated like livestock in a society where their toil supports a rich aristocracy who benefits from their sacrifices, it would be a Lawful Evil practice. Example: Early 19th Century American slavery.

If the slaves are abused and poorly treated in a society where slavery is legal, but not widely used and only benefits a small group who opt to use slaves, I'd call it a Neutral Evil practice. Example: Most slaves in the Star Wars universe.

If the slaves are abused and treated like livestock in a culture where slavery is illegal, but the slavers persist, presumably to use the slaves as disposable labor, shock troops, or for raw sadism and decadence, I would say it would be a Chaotic Evil practice. Example: Modern day "white slavery".

If there happened to be a society where slavery was illegal, but a group practiced it as a means to get a labor force, but treated it's laborers well, it could be considered Chaotic Neutral. Example: A thieves guild in a fantasy kingdom that bans slavery, but the guild takes orphans and urchins off the street and presumably a short life expectancy and offers them food and board in exchange they work for the rest of their lives for the guild as messengers, servants, and informants.

If somehow there was a society where slavery was not illegal, but rare and legally tolerated, and slaves were treated relatively well, perhaps even enjoying legal protections, I could call it a True Neutral practice. Example: A fantasy setting where slavery is technically legal as a long forgotten law, a young beggar tries to pick-pocket a member of the PC party and is caught, and while facing execution, the PC's realize that under an obscure law they can insist that the beggar be enslaved to them instead, and he must be treated humanely but he cannot be legally emancipated for "X" years, so a PC gains a follower/cohort that literally and legally owes the PC his life.
 
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Crothian

First Post
Yes, every DM runs their games differently and the veiew such subjects differently. Unless you are using the BoWD which I think defines slavery as evil or something like that, it falls to the DM to make such choices.
 

JackGiantkiller

First Post
I'm intentionally trying to get a number of different views. This is not an argument thread. I don't care which side people come down on, I just want to hear their opinion.:)
 

Starglim

Explorer
Whether slavery is legal has nothing to do with whether it's good or evil (except that illegal slavery is more likely to require evil methods to obtain slaves and keep them in line).

In some societies, criminals and captured enemies were enslaved, as an alternative to being horribly killed. In the past and today, members of some societies chose to take out loans and work off the debt in more or less slave conditions, or to sell to richer people surplus children who they could not support. Other societies had a social class of workers bonded by custom to their work and not permitted to take part in government, whose name we translate today as "slaves", when we might use "serfs" for much worse conditions in a different society.

If you want to say that these arrangements were evil, as opposed to Lawful Neutral, then you should support that with argument, rather than assume it. The American system of slavery was based on numerous evil practices and cannot be justified, but beyond civics classes in primary school, it's not so clear that that can be extended to every slave system throughout history.
 

Bihor

First Post
It's easy to make slavery evil, becuse of the american history.

But slavery at first was a punishment of crime or prisoner of war, it becom evil when you mistreet the slave.

The owner dind't kill there slave of mistreet them, some respected them too.

sorry, Starglim you where faste than me
 
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