sleep and hobgoblin resilience?

[Thordain]

What happens if sleep is cast on a hobgoblin and hits?

On a hit, sleep slows the hobgoblin. At this point, it seems the hob gets an immediate saving throw. If the saving throw fails, does the hob become immediately unconscious?

So does that make sleep MORE powerful against hobs? Normally sleep takes 1 turn to put something to sleep.

 

[Syrsuro]

What happens if sleep is cast on a hobgoblin and hits?

On a hit, sleep slows the hobgoblin. At this point, it seems the hob gets an immediate saving throw. If the saving throw fails, does the hob become immediately unconscious?

So does that make sleep MORE powerful against hobs? Normally sleep takes 1 turn to put something to sleep.

This works both ways: If a player is granted a free save by an ally versus an escalating power like Sleep (or Petrification) they can end up worse off then they would have been.

AFAIK, this is RAW but I have seen some houserules that say that you can never end up worse off as a result of a free save. I.e. if you fail the accelerated effect does not occur, but only occurs on your normal end of round saves.

Carl

 

[ppaladin123]

Is that a house rule? I thought the intent was that a granted "free" saving throw allowed a chance to shake off a condition without the risk of progressing to a worse state. My group isn't counting failures on free saves against players but we never discussed this as a house rule. Hmmm.

 

[Syrsuro]

Is that a house rule? I thought the intent was that a granted "free" saving throw allowed a chance to shake off a condition without the risk of progressing to a worse state. My group isn't counting failures on free saves against players but we never discussed this as a house rule. Hmmm.

It is a good idea. I don't think it exists anywhere in the rules. Rather, I think it just makes enough sense that many have implemented it in the absence of a specific rule.

But if anyone can point to where it is actual RAW, great.

..........

Actually, I think I have found it. But it's not stated directly, but rather implied.

"An aftereffect doesn't begin until after you've rolled all your saving throws at the end of your turn." PHB, last paragraph in the section on saving throws.

Although this is actually part of a section designed to clarify that you can't roll an immediate save when the aftereffect takes effect (i.e. immediately after the triggering failure), taken literally it means that the acceleration only occurs at the end of your turn and thus can't occur during someone else's turn as a result of a free save.

Carl

 

[Tikigod]

The way I played it is if the hobgobs failed the save they went to sleep. It allowed the party to absolutely WRECK the first hobgob room in KOTS (along with some awful saves on my part). Both soldiers failed. The spider failed (and then was coup de graced by a Brute Strike). It was ugly...ugly I tell you!

 

[Deverash]

What happens if sleep is cast on a hobgoblin and hits?

On a hit, sleep slows the hobgoblin. At this point, it seems the hob gets an immediate saving throw. If the saving throw fails, does the hob become immediately unconscious?

So does that make sleep MORE powerful against hobs? Normally sleep takes 1 turn to put something to sleep.

Well, it's an option for the Hobgoblin to take the immediate save. It's an immediate action for him, so he might not want to(or be able to for that matter). Maybe he can't do what he needs to do anyways if he's slowed, so he's willing to take the risk of being knocked out by trying to shake off the droziness quickly. Or he can just not use the power, and take his chances at the end of his round normally.

 

[SableWyvern]

Actually, I think I have found it. But it's not stated directly, but rather implied.

"An aftereffect doesn't begin until after you've rolled all your saving throws at the end of your turn." PHB, last paragraph in the section on saving throws.

Although this is actually part of a section designed to clarify that you can't roll an immediate save when the aftereffect takes effect (i.e. immediately after the triggering failure), taken literally it means that the acceleration only occurs at the end of your turn and thus can't occur during someone else's turn as a result of a free save.

Carl

An aftereffect is something that happens after you pass a save, or an effect ends, not a further penalty added on a failed save -- for example, Curseforged Armour, where the penalty is -2 (save ends) with an aftereffect of -1 (save ends). Thus, you start with a -2 penalty, which is reduced to -1 on a save and then completely eliminated on a second save.

In any case, I think that when they specify that aftereffects begin at the end of your turn after saves, that's simply sloppy editing and a failure to consider non-standard saves taken out of turn.

Back to the OP, by a strict, literal reading of the rules, a failed bonus save can defiitely leave you worse off, although I don't play it that way.

 

[Runestar]

It could definitely add a new level of complexity to the game though. Do you take the new save, and face the possibility of ending a debilitating status effect earlier, but with the possible downside of making it worse if you fail, or just leave it as is and settle for the original conditions?

No more automatically rerolling each new save as it is granted to you. Now, you must carefully weigh the pros against the cons and decide if it is worth the risks.

Or maybe I am thinking too much...

 

[garyh]

It could definitely add a new level of complexity to the game though. Do you take the new save, and face the possibility of ending a debilitating status effect earlier, but with the possible downside of making it worse if you fail, or just leave it as is and settle for the original conditions?

No more automatically rerolling each new save as it is granted to you. Now, you must carefully weigh the pros against the cons and decide if it is worth the risks.

Or maybe I am thinking too much...

Yeah, BUT... somehow using your racial power and having a 45% chance to make yourself WORSE off doesn't sound that fun to me.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, BUT... somehow using your racial power and having a 45% chance to make yourself WORSE off doesn't sound that fun to me.

But you have a 55% chance of making yourself better.