Sleep Poison not a Sleep Effect?!?!?!?!?!

[frankthedm]

Drow poison is unconscious, edit, at least since 2E. Pseudodragon poison deals out sleep.

3.5
Drow usually coat their arrows with a potent venom.

Poison (Ex)
An opponent hit by a drow’s poisoned weapon must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or fall unconscious. After 1 minute, the subject must succeed on another DC 13 Fortitude save or remain unconscious for 2d4 hours. A typical drow carries 1d4-1 doses of drow knockout poison. Drow typically coat arrows and crossbow bolts with this poison, but it can also be applied to a melee weapon. Note that drow have no special ability to apply poison without risking being poisoned themselves. Since this poison is not a magical effect, drow and other elves are susceptible to it.


A pseudodragon can deliver a vicious bite, but its principal weapon is its sting-equipped tail.

Poison (Ex)
Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage sleep for 1 minute, secondary damage sleep for 1d3 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

 

[Final_boss325]

Once again, your argument is all about semantics. Allow me to define the word sleep if I may:

Sleep: An UNCONSCIOUS state the body enters in order to repair itself.

To further the debate the way I see it is the dragon shaman has dedicated his life to emulating dragons, including their ability to shake off any unnatural attempts to render them unconscious, magical or otherwise.

Sleep effects, AFIK, have never been officially defined by WOTC. I believe this is because it should be obvious. A sleep effect is any that would immediately render the target unconscious. Obviously, some things would get around this, such as non-lethal damage.

The idea that anyone could say that SLEEP POISON is not a sleep effect, when it's in the name, just because it doesn't say "sleep" as the effect, is just utter nonsense. It doesn't make sense in any way, shape, or form.

 

[frankthedm]

The idea that anyone could say that SLEEP POISON is not a sleep effect, when it's in the name, just because it doesn't say "sleep" as the effect,

Where are you getting the term "sleep poison"? it is not in the poison entry or the Elf :: d20srd.org of the SRD. Do the written entries in the physical DMG or MM use different wording?

 

[Final_boss325]

Where are you getting the term "sleep poison"? it is not in the poison entry or the Elf :: d20srd.org of the SRD. Do the written entries in the physical DMG or MM use different wording?

You're completely missing the issue. If one is rendered unconscious, you fall to the ground, eyes closed, unresponsive but breathing. If one is made to fall asleep, you fall to the ground, eyes closed, unresponsive but breathing.

Have you ever heard the phrase: "If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and moves like a duck, then guess what, it's a duck!"?

The point I'm trying to make is, that no matter what the wording, if the end result is the same, the effect is the same.

I mean, if you got hit with a poison that was called "Paralysis Poison", but the effect did not say "Paralysis". Instead it said that the target immediately ceases moving and appears rigid as if a statue. Would you say that paralysis and that effect are different?!

If this is the case, I would say that an extreme amount of logic is missing from your argument.

 

[pawsplay]

Except that sleep and unconciousness are not at all the same. For instance, a sleeping person can be awakened.

 

[Final_boss325]

Except that sleep and unconciousness are not at all the same. For instance, a sleeping person can be awakened.

Find me where it says an unconscious person can't be awakened at all, and I might buy that logic.

 

[pawsplay]

Find me where it says an unconscious person can't be awakened at all, and I might buy that logic.

Sure.

Unconscious
Knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having current hit points between -1 and -9, or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

There ya go. Unconscious characters are always knocked out and helpless.

 

[Final_boss325]

Sure.



There ya go. Unconscious characters are always knocked out and helpless.

The example you provided only entails when a character is between -1 to -9 hit points. As I stated with non-lethal damage, these would be exceptions to my argument. As they are natural, physical examples of being rendered unconscious.

When I said find me where unconscious characters cannot be woken up, I meant an example where an effect has rendered a character unconscious (not asleep), and says he cannot be awakened.

 

[frankthedm]

Another way to get knocked unconscious.

Ability Damaged
A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.

 

[Final_boss325]

Another way to get knocked unconscious.

Ability Damaged
A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.

Yet again, another physical example. The fact remains that I haven't seen a convincing example of why a character with immunity to sleep effects would be affected by sleep poison, whether or not the effect is unconsciousness.

The fact that sleep is not in the list of status effects says to me that there is no concrete definition as to what a sleep effect is. Therefore, as far as I can see, any unphysical effect that would cause unconsciousness should be defined as a sleep effect.