Sleep spell and a shout

[Rafe]

It does kind of make sense to still be slowed after waking up, but using the power as is written probably implies that if you again fail a save AFTER waking up, you fall unconscious yet again

I don't read that at all. I see it as it's written: the target is slowed (save ends). Failing that, they fall unconscious (save ends). If they're unconscious, they still have two effects going - slowed and magical unconscious unconsciousness. Need to save vs both as per any other situation when someone is suffering two effects.

It's my personal opinion that Sleep was meant to have the "damage awakens" clause on there [...] and while I guess you can decide magic does anything you want, I don't think it's appropriate for a 1st level daily to be THAT much better than an off-role paragon level power.

I don't feel it's all that powerful. There's no damage component and making a saving throw isn't all that tough. It also takes a failed save for the full effect to take hold (and that doesn't happen til the creatures' turns in the round). Creatures have a 55% chance each turn to end an effect if it even works in the first place.

That said, I can understand this being house-ruled to include a "damage ends" proviso. Depends on the people in the game and how they feel about it.

 

[James McMurray]

It does kind of make sense to still be slowed after waking up, but using the power as is written probably implies that if you again fail a save AFTER waking up, you fall unconscious yet again - which is kinda cool but perhaps makes the spell too powerful for a lvl 1 Daily --and sleep is already powerful enough as it is, useful in all tiers of play.

The power says you only fall asleep if you fail the first save vs. Slow.

 

[Caliban]

I don't feel it's all that powerful. There's no damage component and making a saving throw isn't all that tough. It also takes a failed save for the full effect to take hold (and that doesn't happen til the creatures' turns in the round). Creatures have a 55% chance each turn to end an effect if it even works in the first place.

Wait until you see a high-wisdom orb wizard with an Orb of Mental Dominion cast it.

 

[Vass]

Wait until you see a high-wisdom orb wizard with an Orb of Mental Dominion cast it.

Optimizing an attack to get the best possible benefit from it doesn't necessarily mean the attack itself is broken. Within reasonable bounds that is. In my mind there is a solid difference between optimizing, and blatant min/maxing exploitation.

That said I don't remember what the orb of Mental Dominion does.

 

[Caliban]

Optimizing an attack to get the best possible benefit from it doesn't necessarily mean the attack itself is broken. Within reasonable bounds that is. In my mind there is a solid difference between optimizing, and blatant min/maxing exploitation.

That said I don't remember what the orb of Mental Dominion does.

The Orb's daily power forces a target to roll saves against any effects from the spell twice and take the lower roll. (It does require the spell attack the Will defense, and you have to hit with spell first.)

If they fail the save against slow, then you hit them with your Orb Mastery power so that they are making saves against the sleep twice, with a hefty penalty, and taking the lowest one.

Once per day, you can basically shut an Elite down, or take a Solo out of the fight for a few rounds (or longer with a little luck). And while they are asleep you get +7 to hit them (Helpless + Combat Advantage) and can auto-crit if you are adjacent to them (Coup De Grace).

I play an Orb Wizard in LFR with this combo. He's 6th level with a 19 Wisdom and the Orb of Mental Dominion. Rolling twice with a -4 on the roll helps make it stick.

 

[Vass]

The Orb's daily power forces a target to roll saves against any effects from the spell twice and take the lower roll. (It does require the spell attack the Will defense, and you have to hit with spell first.)

If they fail the save against slow, then you hit them with your Orb Mastery power so that they are making saves against the sleep twice, with a hefty penalty, and taking the lowest one.

Once per day, you can basically shut an Elite down, or take a Solo out of the fight for a few rounds (or longer with a little luck). And while they are asleep you get +7 to hit them (Helpless + Combat Advantage) and can auto-crit if you are adjacent to them (Coup De Grace).

I play an Orb Wizard in LFR with this combo. He's 6th level with a 19 Wisdom and the Orb of Mental Dominion. Rolling twice with a -4 on the roll helps make it stick.

Given the fact that Elites get a +2 to saves, and Solos a +5, I'd say it's a reasonable optimization and not broken. Especially considering the resources you expend (daily power, daily item power) not to mention that you still have to hit etc.

I like that Sleep is a solid spell for all levels. ^___^

 

[Caliban]

Given the fact that Elites get a +2 to saves, and Solos a +5, I'd say it's a reasonable optimization and not broken. Especially considering the resources you expend (daily power, daily item power) not to mention that you still have to hit etc.

I like that Sleep is a solid spell for all levels. ^___^

I never said it was broken. My point is that it is powerful with the right build.

And it just get's more powerful the higher level you are. Your Wis modifier increases, and you can get Spell Focu for an additional -2 on their saves, and there is another Orb you can get to apply a further penalty to saves.

We did a playtest with lvl 16 versions of our characters, and I put a Dracolich (solo brute) to Sleep for 3 rounds - long enough to do over 500 points of damage to it (3 PC's autocriting it every round). Of course, it then woke up and it took us 2 more rounds to kill it.

In another combat in that same playtest, I put a Nightwalker (lvl 20 elite) to sleep and it wasn't able to make the save before we killed it (although I did use all my daily's to put damaging effects on it while it was out).

 

[elecgraystone]

I like that Sleep is a solid spell for all levels. ^___^

And that's why it's broken. When you keep a 1st level spell instead of upgrading it as you go to 30th, either it's too strong or the other spells are too weak. (here's a hint, the other spells aren't too weak)

 

[IceFractal]

My main reason for this opinion (and house rule) is that both of the other examples of save-ends unconsciousness (the rogue's Knockout and Garrote Grip) have a damage-ends clause

Actually, this is the main thing proving that Sleep isn't ended by damage. Exception-based design means that things which are specifically called out as exceptions aren't the norm, and powers don't have those exceptions unless they say they do.

And that's why it's broken. When you keep a 1st level spell instead of upgrading it as you go to 30th, either it's too strong or the other spells are too weak. (here's a hint, the other spells aren't too weak)

I disagree. The reason Sleep remains useful is because it isn't tied to damage - other powers would scale equally well, if their damage scaled by level. And honestly, why would a status-effect spell be locked to a specific level? Putting a 30th level monster out of commission for X rounds is as useful to a 30th level character as doing the same to a 1st level monster would be for a 1st level character.


And as for the "visual" - this isn't a gentle lullaby that makes you fall asleep, this is magic chloroform that shuts you down until you can gather the strength to throw it off. If damage woke people up from anesthesia, surgery would be a lot more difficult.

 

[eleventh]

I liked IceFractal's last post and agree with most of it. The only thing I might have disagreed with is about how a status-effect spell can't be locked to a specific level. I would respond that such spells can lock to a level due to the type of status effect they confer.

Dazed -> Stunned -> Petrified
Slowed -> Immobilized -> Restrained

A low level power might daze/slow an enemy, while a later one might stun/immobilize and therefore replace the first. The ultimate spell might then petrify/restrain. The problem with unconscious is that it doesn't really have a hierarchy to tap into like dazed and slowed do. Edit: (unless you count Helpless -> Unconscious, but helpless usually comes from unconscious anyway).