Snatch/Deflect Arrows vs. Tanglefoot Bags and Alchemist's Fire?

[allenw]

One of my 3.5 players, who has a Monk cohort, has just asked me if the Snatch Arrows feat will work against such special thrown weapons as Alchemist's Fire and Tanglefoot Bags. To which I thought, "What a good question! Why didn't anyone ask that before?" But, judging from my search of the Internet at large and this site, it's not a question that's tended to come up.
We run a pretty-close-to-the-book game, and upon looking at all the relevant rules text I can find, I think the answer is "yes," at least in 3.5. I wouldn't allow Deflect Arrows to protect vs. such missiles, since they'd "go off" when you deflected them, but they *are* "thrown weapons," and they're neither "of exceptional mass" or spell effects, so why shouldn't Snatch Arrows work? I can't think of a rules or "realism" reason why it shouldn't, and I'm not sure it would be a game-balance problem, even though it would also logically apply to Gloves of Arrow Snaring; in fact, it might help to make Tanglefoot Bags *less* of a game-balance problem.
Anyone else care to share their opinions/rulings?
To quote the 3.5 SRD in relevant part:

DEFLECT ARROWS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.

SNATCH ARROWS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back at the original attacker (even though it isn’t your turn) or kept for later use.
You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat.

Alchemist’s Fire: You can throw a flask of alchemist’s fire as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.

Tanglefoot Bag: When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air.

THROW SPLASH WEAPON
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.

Yes, Tanglefoot Bags aren't technically "Splash Weapons," but the point is that they, and Splash Weapons, are definitely "ranged weapons".

 

[HeavyG]

My rules-fu is weak, so I won't try to answer your question using the rules as written, though I will say that I would allow it with a penalty. A failure would mean that the snatcher's hand/foot/tentacle is hit.

I also have a question about tanglefoot bags, and I figure I'd put it here instead of cluttering the board. When you're hit with a tanglefoot bag, does it become part of your gear ? Specifically, would it follow you around if you cast Gaseous Form ?

 

[MarauderX]

Tanglefoot Bag: When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.

My reading is that the Tanglefoot Bag opens in mid air and the last thing you want to do is touch the bag. Any character using Deflect or Snatch arrows would be an automatic success of the tanglefoot in my book, though you would need to hit the target to use Deflect/Snatch anyway.

 

[Sejs]

My reading is that the Tanglefoot Bag opens in mid air...

I've always assumed the bag ruptures on impact, like a Flask of Hostile Substance du Jour.

 

[Falling Icicle]

That is a really good question!

I would assume that a character can catch the flask of alchemists fire. From my understanding, alchemists fire is basically a napalm-like substance which ignites upon exposure to the air. So when the flask hits a creature or object, it shatters, exposing the substance to the air and causing it to ignite. Since the flask has to break upon striking, a character with snatch arrows could safely catch it.

A Tanglefoot bag, however, supposedly breaks open mid-flight into a spread of goo. For that reason, I wouldn't allow a character to catch a tanglefoot bag that has been thrown (unless he wants to catch a sticky mess). Now, I may be wrong, the tanglefoot bag may erupt upon striking, in which case, like the alchemist fire, I would allow a character to catch it.

 

[melkoriii]

I would have the monk make a reflex save to not break the Flask. Its like catching a egg. Some times you can other times it breaks. I would put the DC like 12

 

[Artoomis]

You have to make some assumptions no matter what.

If you assume that a tanglefoot bag has some sort of a zip-strip on it that you hold on to to open the bag while you throw it, then it cannot be deflected. If you assume it opens on contact (which seems safer, thus more likely), then it can be deflected. Simple enough, really.

The deflection is merely a change in the direction of flight for the objhect such that it misses.

For the "napalm," same thing it can be deflected.

As far as snatching - I'd allow that, too. If he can snatch all forms of arrows without breaking them (including magic ones that break 50% of the time), then he can catch these items, too.

This is what a monk DOES. No need to make it harder on him. It's his schtick - if he chooses that path. Let him have his glory.

 

[Falling Icicle]

This is what a monk DOES. No need to make it harder on him. It's his schtick - if he chooses that path. Let him have his glory.

I agree. There is great cinematic value in visualizing a monk plucking flasks of alchemists fire out of mid air and throwing them back at fool who underestimated his martial prowess.

 

[allenw]

I've always assumed the bag ruptures on impact, like a Flask of Hostile Substance du Jour.

In 3.0, this is definitely the case; the bag bursts when it's "thrown against a creature".
In 3.5, the bag bursts when you throw it "at a creature," which is arguably different. Whether the difference was intended or not is another matter.

 

[Deset Gled]

It really doesn't matter if the bag opens in the air or on contact with the target. Either way, it is a "ranged weapon" and will be deflected.