sneak attack grapple, while invisible?

[wolfs-spirit]

A rogue decides to use a garrot as a sneak attack.

Before the encounter, the rogue has enough time to turn invisible and watch the potential opponents.

moving quietly, he sneaks up on someone and makes his attack.

IN the song and silence book, using a garrot incures an AoO.

Is this penalty before the garroting takes place or after it starts?

Asking because if the AoO occurs while approaching, the rogue is conceiled in invisibility If after, then the invisibilty is gone and an AoO gets made without the benifit of being conceiled.

does a Garrot, still allow the 3d6 (5th level rogue) sneak attack bonus?

 

[whitewizard]

Here is the way it should work:

Attacker is invisible, approaches and makes the attack with the Garrote getting all the bonuses for being invisible (no dex bonus for defender, +2 to melee attack). By executing the attack two things happen. First the invisibility is lost because an attack has been made. Second and AoO is provoked because the attack is considered a grapple attack. Therefore the AoO is done without the benefit of the invisibility spell being active since the attack that provoked the AoO also cause the spell to disapate (assuming it was not improved invisibility).

I guess the point of the question is which happens first:
1) invisibility is lost
2) AoO is taken

Both happen as a result of the attack. My opinion is that the invisibility is lost the instant the attack is made, as opposed to the AoO which is a reaction to the attack.

 

[BlindKobold]

Depends.

If the person KNOWS the rogue is there, then consider it melee as usual. Grant the attacker the normal bonuses for being invisible and the person is denied his DEX. Does being denied your DEX prevent you from making AoOs? Without the book here, I can't remember. If not, see the above example.

If the the mark (er... victim) does not suspect the rogue is there, then the victim is FLATFOOTED until his/her turn. If flatfooted, they normally do not get AoOs. So, the rogue would not incur an AoO.

As far as getting sneak attack damage, any attack a rogue makes when the opponent is denied their DEX bonus is a sneak attack... so I'd have to say "yes". Scary, isn't it...

 

[whitewizard]

BlindKobold, you are correct that you lose AoOs if you are caught flatfooted. I had forgot about that modifier.

Losing your dex bonus does not imply that you are caught flat-footed. In fact the decription of the uncanny dodge ability specifically addresses invisibility vs being flatfooted: "At third level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flatfooted or struck by an invisible attacker."

So if the attack comes as a surprise, or the attacker wins initiative, then the target does not get an AoO. If comat has already been joined, then the attacker would receive the AoO.

 

[chilibean]

The close quarters fighting feat makes it pretty clear that the AoO occurs BEFORE the actual grapple. Otherwise the feat wouldn't exist.

Thus, you are denied your AoO for the grapple (which really only comes about because you are moving into the opponents square, as with Bull Rush) because the attacker is invisble and doesn't provoke AoO's with movement. And he doesn't become visible until the actual attack, and by that time, it's too late, you missed your opportunity and the garrot is already around your neck (it he hits).

Whether the attacker hits or not, the defender still doesn't get an AoO after the attack. Because the attacker has already moved in and the defender's opportunity is gone already.

 

[FANGO]

Attacks of opportunity always happen just before the thing that provokes them. Thus, for example, if someone charges you with power lunge and you don't wanna get hit, you can disarm them and they won't be able to hit you (at least not with a weapon). Works the same way with invis and garottes: the rogue attacks with the garotte, being invisible when the attack happens. Since the guard is flat-footed, unaware, etc., he doesn't get an attack of opportunity. I wouldn't even let him get one if he had combat reflexes, since at the time that the attack of opportunity would happen he doesn't even know where the rogue is (or even that he is there at all). Keep in mind that in addition to having a 50% miss chance from invisibility, you also need to know where the attacker is in order to hit him. If the rogue is invisible and the guard had no reason to suspect that he was there (failed his listen check, etc.), then he shouldn't get an attack of opportunity.

Also, I should mention that any rogue that can't do this without an invisibilty spell isn't worth his salt and should get extra attacks of opportunity taken against him for wasting spells and being a wuss ;-)