Sneak Attack Master

[Gobbo]

We are starting the campaign with 1st level characters. I am planning on taking Improved Initiative and Point Blank Shot for starters. Later, Two Weapon fighting so that he can throw two knives at once and get double sneak attack. Also, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot and Precise Shot.

Has anyone tried Flick of the Wrist (from complete warrior)?
How about Deadly Precision from The expanded psionics book?

Am I missing any sneak attack feats?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I've always seen sneak attacks as working if the target was flatfooted, even if the target gets to keep dex to AC.

Not as written. Sneak attacks don't occur because the opponent is flat-footed; they occur either because a/ the opponent is denied Dex bonus to AC, or b/ you are flanking the opponent.

Now, in most cases, an opponent who is flat-footed is denied Dex bonus to AC, and for that reason can be sneak attacked.

But a flat-footed opponent who isn't denied Dex is obviously not subject to sneak attack for being denied his Dex bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

We are starting the campaign with 1st level characters. I am planning on taking Improved Initiative and Point Blank Shot for starters. Later, Two Weapon fighting so that he can throw two knives at once and get double sneak attack. Also, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot and Precise Shot.

Has anyone tried Flick of the Wrist (from complete warrior)?
How about Deadly Precision from The expanded psionics book?

Am I missing any sneak attack feats?

Take a look at sidestep. Flick of the Wrist can be nice, it's one sneak attack for nearly free if you dropped your opponent and still have some attacks from your full attack action left...

Take Quickdraw. You'll need it soon.

 

[drunkmoogle]

Take a look at sidestep. Flick of the Wrist can be nice, it's one sneak attack for nearly free if you dropped your opponent and still have some attacks from your full attack action left...

Take Quickdraw. You'll need it soon.

Master Thrower gets Quickdraw for free. You can survive early on without it, but you may be a weak link in the party until then. Ahhh, the cost of optimizing a character for mid-level...

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What thrown weapon tricks are you taking? Trip Shot + Two With One Blow + Weak Spot Looks good, but you can replace Two With One with Sneaky Shot and have a good all-around thrower.

Just be careful to watch your load and remember that enchanting many thrown weapons is a costly prospect.

 

[Gobbo]

For tricks, I was planning on taking Sneaky Shot first, and definitly the one that allows you to attack as a touch attack. That leaves one more trick that I have not decided on.

Did someone mention a feat called Sidestep? What is it?

 

[the_bruiser]

Not as written. Sneak attacks don't occur because the opponent is flat-footed; they occur either because a/ the opponent is denied Dex bonus to AC, or b/ you are flanking the opponent.

Now, in most cases, an opponent who is flat-footed is denied Dex bonus to AC, and for that reason can be sneak attacked.

But a flat-footed opponent who isn't denied Dex is obviously not subject to sneak attack for being denied his Dex bonus.

-Hyp.

Uh oh. Hyp, you're pretty much always right, so this concerns me, as I might have been playing this wrong for almost four years now.

We read it:

Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage.

Our interpretation: It doesn't say IS, it says WOULD BE. So someone with uncanny dodge doesn't lose his dex bonus, but he WOULD if he didn't have uncanndy dodge. Ergo, he retains his dexterity bonus to AC but still can be sneak attacked because he WOULD BE denied it - i.e., he's still better than someone without uncanny dodge (still has dex AC) but isn't proof against sneak attack.

Is this an old argument that was proven wrong long ago and I missed it?

 

[Derren]

By that logic an invisible rogue can sneak attack someone with See Invisibility active because he WOULD loose his Dex bonus if he didn't have See Invisibility.

 

[HeavyG]

Or you could sneak attack anyone anything because he would lose his dex bonus if he was, say, a blind kobold.

 

[the_bruiser]

Or you could sneak attack anyone anything because he would lose his dex bonus if he was, say, a blind kobold.

Yeah, well, you can all bite my butt .

Okay, so we decided that sometime around June 2000 and just haven't thought about it since. I'll, err, take your comments under advisement .

 

[Len]

We read it:

Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage.

Our interpretation: It doesn't say IS, it says WOULD BE. So someone with uncanny dodge doesn't lose his dex bonus, but he WOULD if he didn't have uncanndy dodge. Ergo, he retains his dexterity bonus to AC but still can be sneak attacked because he WOULD BE denied it - i.e., he's still better than someone without uncanny dodge (still has dex AC) but isn't proof against sneak attack.

The meaning of "would be" is explained by the rest of the sentence. Some characters don't have any dex bonus to AC simply because they have low dexterity. However they can still be sneak-attacked. (It would be pretty sad if a rogue wasn't allowed to sneak-attack big lumbering fighters because they're too clumsy to be sneak-attacked!)

Since there's no other explanation given for the "would be" - it doesn't say "ignoring any special feats, abilities, spells, etc. that would normally let the target keep its dex bonus" - I think you're adding a meaning that isn't there.

You know, these rules aren't really any more complicated than the ISO technical standards that I have to read at work.