Sneak attack while swallowed?

[Nail]

Don't you? Isn't it part of the rules? I suppose if you don't want to use that sentence, we can just throw any other part out that doesn't suit you.

Who's throwing out stuff that doesn't suit him, again?

I didn't say it was healed, either, but clearly whatever damage was done is irrelevant (regarding the gullet), isn't it?

You posited that since the gullet closes, it's essentially taken no damage. I can understand why you might try to rule that way. To me, it seems far simpler and clearer to treat the damage as part of the creature's total, and not get bogged down in what part of the creature took what damage.

Maybe he's closer, maybe not. Maybe being held in the gullet 20ft above the ground puts him further away from the groin, arguably one of the vital areas.

A rogue does NOT have to be able to reach all vital areas. Just one!

 

[TBoarder]

You posited that since the gullet closes, it's essentially taken no damage. I can understand why you might try to rule that way. To me, it seems far simpler and clearer to treat the damage as part of the creature's total, and not get bogged down in what part of the creature took what damage.

The entire point of the gullet closing being that it won't allow a seond character who's been swallowed to exit from the same hole. I hate it when people use whacked out semantics to justify screwing a character out of an ability...

 

[Infiniti2000]

No, he needs Sneak Attack. It's how he can distinguish the vital spots on a grick, an otyugh, and a roper.

No, it's not how. You do not attack a grick (e.g.) from the inside. That's apples and oranges.

You just postulated that a creature who puts armed humanoids into its gullet would have a less-vulnerable gullet. I'm suggesting you're right - it's protected enough that you only crit within your threat range, not automatically, and you only sneak attack if yu have the class feature, not automatically.[/QUOTE] Actually, I postulate that the gullet is not a vital area and thus not vulnerable to sneak attacks or crits. Or, it is a vital area and thus vulnerable (always) to both sneak attacks and crits (sneak attacks of course only being if you have that class ability, I figured that goes without being said). What exactly is the gray area on this again?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, I postulate that the gullet is not a vital area and thus not vulnerable to sneak attacks or crits. Or, it is a vital area and thus vulnerable (always) to both sneak attacks and crits (sneak attacks of course only being if you have that class ability, I figured that goes without being said). What exactly is the gray area on this again?

I'm suggesting that as part of a creature, the gullet has vital areas, or has vital areas within reach, and is thus subject to crits and sneak attacks if appropriate circumstances are met.

The grey area is "Did you roll a critical threat, or not?" The grey area is "Do you have the Sneak Attack class feature, or not?"

You do not attack a grick (e.g.) from the inside.

But if you do attack a grick from the inside, and if he doesn't have concealment, and if he's denied his Dex bonus, you'll get sneak attack. You're meeting the conditions of the class feature.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm suggesting that as part of a creature, the gullet has vital areas, or has vital areas within reach, and is thus subject to crits and sneak attacks if appropriate circumstances are met.

The gullet has vital areas? Did you italicize the wrong word? To continue this train of thought, you need to answer whether or not the gullet has its own set of hp. If, as Nail, you say not, then how could the gullet independently have any vital spots of his own? Even if it did, what could that possibly mean? Is a gullet having its own vital spots not proof that the gullet has its own hit point pool?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The gullet has vital areas? Did you italicize the wrong word? To continue this train of thought, you need to answer whether or not the gullet has its own set of hp. If, as Nail, you say not, then how could the gullet independently have any vital spots of his own? Even if it did, what could that possibly mean? Is a gullet having its own vital spots not proof that the gullet has its own hit point pool?

The torso has vital areas. The head has vital areas. Those vital areas also belong to the creature. Neither the torso nor the head has its own hit point pool.

A fighter who hits a tyrannosaurus in the head deals normal damage, or more if he rolls a critical. A rogue who hits a tyrannosaurus in the head deals normal damage, or more if he rolls a critical... or if the purple worm is denied Dex.

A fighter who hits a tyrannosaurus in the torso deals normal damage, or more if he rolls a critical. A rogue who hits a tyrannosaurus in the torso deals normal damage, or more if he rolls a critical... or if the tyrannosaurus is denied Dex.

A fighter who hits a tyrannosaurus in the gullet deals normal damage, or more if he rolls a critical. A rogue who hits a tyrannosaurus in the gullet deals normal damage, or more if he rolls a critical... or if the tyrannosaurus is denied Dex.

When you hit someone in the head, you aren't necessarily striking a vital spot... but if you roll a critical or employ sneak attack, you are.

When you hit someone in the gullet, you aren't necessarily striking a vital spot... but if you roll a critical or employ sneak attack, you are.

-Hyp.

 

[eamon]

If I put a knife in your gullet, would that be a "vital spot"?

The argument about the interior of the gullet not being a vital spot is ....reaching, IMO. The gullet does not have separate hp. It's part of the creature -- and right next to the heart, lungs, etc...

In fact it is NOT self-evident that the gullet is not a vital spot in and of itself.

Sure, it's reaching. Gullet's which close with muscular action are, however, patently ridiculous. Swallowing monsters just require a little suspension of common sense. Frankly, the fact that you can attack at all after being chomped by a huge mouth and then immersed in powerful acid, while you're constantly churned about by the digestive tract is already far-fetched.

Given that "grappling, cramped" setting, I don't think it's reasonable to allow much in the way of fine control - the type of fine control a sneak attack would require. Allowing for the existence of swallowing monsters, it's simply inconsistent to image they would use a strategy which makes themselves so much more vulnerable - but that's how this would work out.

A D&D swallow-whole enabled monster gullet clearly isn't just any gullet - that just doesn't make sense on many levels. I doubt whether a rogue could percieve much of anything - even with darkvision - inside a gullet. Frankly, any normal humanoid would be instantly blinded by the acid, so presumably, a rogue has his eyes closed (and rather acid-repellent eye-lids too), and is holding his breath, and can't do much but poke about. Even if you're immune to the acid damage, digestive juices aren't transparent, and a blind creature can't make sneak attacks. Apparently it's possible to cut yourself out without hitting a vital area, so it's certainly not a give that any strike hits a vital area. You can't perceive the vitals, and not everything is vital; thus you have no sneak attack. Even if you could perceive the gullet (not that I can see how), no reasonable PC can be experienced in finding the vitals in a gullet which visually probable resembles an ooze more than an animal, so mere rogue-sneak attack would not suffice.

Finally, game mechanics wise, you're grappling the gullet. It's in constant contact with you, and there's no mechanical reason it would be flatfooted (or have otherwise lost it's non-existant Dex bonus), and thus you cannot sneak attack.

A rogue already has a big advantage in any swallowing situation in that he'll actually have a light weapon in hand, generally. The fighter, cleric and mage won't be so lucky, usually, and a monk deals bludgeoning damage. Barring that, escape artist is a rogue-skill, and almost only rogues will have it.

Ultimately, there is a short bit of rules which describes swallow whole. Deviating from these rules by allowing many more activities is asking for trouble. Sneak attack isn't explicitly allowed by swallow whole, and there's no balanced framework I can see for doing so, and I would not allow it.

We have

• Cognitive dissonance: Why would a swallowing creature expose itself so systematically to harm it can have no protection against?
• Cramped quarters would make precise movements tricky
• Visibility: you can't see inside the gullet, because the juices are not transparent.
• No mechanical reason to assume the gullet is flat-footed.
• Balance: allowing sneak attack would mean the rogue often wants to be swallowed, since it means he can consistently use his most powerful attack, while generally being protected from almost all attacks of the swallower (except the acid and bludgeoning damage).

 

[Infiniti2000]

The torso has vital areas. The head has vital areas. Those vital areas also belong to the creature. Neither the torso nor the head has its own hit point pool.

That isn't a valid analogy. You cannot target the torso or head. You can, however, target the gullet (in fact, you have no other choice), but only while inside the creature.

So, is the gullet a vital organ of the creature, or not? Or, are you instead suggesting that you can attack through the gullet (one form of AC), into the rest of the creature (a different AC)? I think this is what you are implying without saying it because it's obviously fraught with problems.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, is the gullet a vital organ of the creature, or not? Or, are you instead suggesting that you can attack through the gullet (one form of AC), into the rest of the creature (a different AC)? I think this is what you are implying without saying it because it's obviously fraught with problems.

The rest of the creature has the same AC, if you're attacking from the inside:
A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity.

It's not just the gizzard that has that AC; it's the interior of the creature. Most of those vital organs are in the interior of the creature, so the attack roll is sufficient to hit them.

(Interestingly, with a low Natural Armor bonus, a creature's interior could actually be harder to hit than the exterior - if a Gelatinous Cube had the Swallow Whole ability, for example, its AC of 3 would rise to 10 on the inside...)

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The rest of the creature has the same AC, if you're attacking from the inside:

There is no "rest of the creature." You're attacking the gullet. It's a specific part of the creature, not the creature. You're not attacking the creature through the gullet, via the gullet, or anything else along those lines. Any such implication is exactly that, an implication. It is not explicit and is nearly the point of debate here, so when you imply that kind of equivalence you're begging the question.

It's not just the gizzard that has that AC; it's the interior of the creature. Most of those vital organs are in the interior of the creature, so the attack roll is sufficient to hit them.

Good point, but still insufficient. You've validly established that the interior of the creature has the same AC all around. That does not allow you to injure targets other than the one you're attacking. The Swallow Whole description is insufficient on its own, so let's take an example, the T-rex:

A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.​

What I get from the above is that you attack the T-Rex's gizzard at AC 12 and once you deal 25 points of damage, you escape (with the hole closing). If you "miss" the gizzard (how you manage to do so is bizarre), then you do not get a second chance on the same attack roll for hitting the vital organs or other parts of the creature.

I presume you agree so far? The extension to my last sentence is likely where you disagree: If you spectacularly hit the gizzard (i.e. crit) then you do not also get to attack the vital organs (using the same attack roll, so this corollary is valid).

Let's take another example, the dire shark. Is the digestive tract (not even just a gullet or gizzard) a vital organ? Obviously, it can't be (at least not for the dire shark).

(Interestingly, with a low Natural Armor bonus, a creature's interior could actually be harder to hit than the exterior - if a Gelatinous Cube had the Swallow Whole ability, for example, its AC of 3 would rise to 10 on the inside...)

Now, that's funny.