Sneak attacks within an Obscuring Mist

[sfedi]

• You succesfully hide in an OM
• You approach an enemy and sneak closer than 5 feet, thus, entering into his space
• This would provoke an AoO, but since you successfully hid, you have total concealment, and he can´t get the AoO.
• If your Hide wasn´t succesfull, the opponent would get an AoO, possibly disrupting your attempt to enter into his space (as in a grapple). Anyway, since you failed your Hide check, you can't sneak attack him.
• Now that you´re closer than 5 feet, the concealment from the OM do not apply, and you can strike with Sneak Attack. Note that you loose concealment too, and can´t hide anymore, just as when you hide (Move Action) + strike (Standard Action) during combat
• You attack with a weapon suitable for grapple attacks (light weapons, no two handed weapons allowed), since you are very close to the target

Is this a reasonable adjudication?
Is it balanced?
Do you see any problems?

I think this situation deals with a grey area of the rules (of which there are many, and will always be)

 

[Nail]

• You succesfully hide in an OM
• You approach an enemy and sneak closer than 5 feet, thus, entering into his space.

Wha?

You'll have to be more specific. Let me assume some things, and fill in the holes:
1) Both the enemy and the rogue are medium sized creatures.
2) The Rogue is sucessfully moving silently. (Opposed by a Listen check; remember the penalty for distance!)
3) Both the enemy and the rogue have melee weapons. These weapons have normal reach.

Okay?

If so, then moving next to the enemy will not provoke any AoOs, unless the rogue then choses to move around further in the enemy's threatened area.

You don't need to "move into the enemy's space" in order to do a melee attack...unless you are smaller than size Small.

• This would provoke an AoO, but since you successfully hid, you have total concealment, and he can´t get the AoO.

No AoO....see above. But yes, the concealment the OM offers (even right next to your opponent on the battle grid) allows you to Hide. ....Opposed by a Spot check, obviously.

• If your Hide wasn´t succesfull, the opponent would get an AoO, possibly disrupting your attempt to enter into his space (as in a grapple). Anyway, since you failed your Hide check, you can't sneak attack him.

You can't claim to be hidden if the enemy spots you.

Even so, you can't sneak attack someone who has concealment...and that's just what the spell Obscuring Mist provides.

And please: why are you "entering his space"? Are you a size tiny creature?????

• Now that you´re closer than 5 feet, the concealment from the OM do not apply, and you can strike with Sneak Attack. Note that you loose concealment too, and can´t hide anymore, just as when you hide (Move Action) + strike (Standard Action) during combat

You don't lose concealment. Read the spell description again.

Moreover, you can use a move action to hide again, depending on your character abilities. You can "snipe". Look it up!

• You attack with a weapon suitable for grapple attacks (light weapons, no two handed weapons allowed), since you are very close to the target

You are a rogue. Why, by all that's holy, are you grappling someone????!!!

 

[Orichin]

Main problem I see is that a human could not do that to another human, in game terms. Without an ability or spell that states otherwise, creatures within 2 size categories can't occupy the same space; as with bull rush/grappling/mounting a horse/running between a giant's legs. Note that moving through occupied space (with a tumble check or by first notifying a friendly character that you intend to pass them) and declaring an action in occupied space are very different.
However, Obscuring Mist says that it obscures all vision beyond 5 feet away. Thus, as soon as 2 characters are in adjacent squares, Obscuring Mist has no effect on either, relative to the other (thus, by moving into melee range, you are negating all concealment bonuses from the spell and moving closer is not neccessary).

Additionally, as DM I either require players to reroll a hide check with updated bonuses or re-adjust the origional hide/spot contest whenever a character's cover changes (like when your rogue comes within 20 feet of the defender, and again when he comes within melee range-provided he has some type of concealment or cover to hide behind without the mist aiding him at melee range)

 

[Sue Bloodbucket]

I think what sfedi is looking for i a way to sneak somebody that has concealment. (he doesn't want to grapple or such things man! he just wants to be REAL close and still strike out with a weapon)

To be frank i think that this tread shall be moved to the houserule section because in the rules it clearly says that no sneak attacks are allowed if the enemy has concealment.

On the other hand that doesn't make sense to me. For an archer it might be very difficult to aim at certain vital points but in a hand-to-hand fight? I think i know exactly were his chestnuts ought to be [exept that the villain in question is a lich, which voids seak attacks in the first way].
I think your suggestion is a good call.
On our table we go as far as to state that (non-range) sneak attacks can be made as long as the opponent hasn't full concealment.

Sue

 

[sfedi]

Ok, I really blew it. I was completely unclear. My apologies.

To be frank i think that this tread shall be moved to the houserule section because in the rules it clearly says that no sneak attacks are allowed if the enemy has concealment.

I'm trying to see how the current rules deal with this scenario, not to house rule it.

The scenario is much as you assumed Nail, and as Sue Bloodbucket said.

I´m thinking of a medium sized rogue character in an OM trying to sneak attack another medium sized creature.

About the distance in which you have concealment in an OM (extract from the SRD):

A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary once created. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).

So, two creatures adjacent in a grid, have concealment from each other.
But, if they were to be at less than 5 feet, they wouldn´t.
That's what the rogue in this scenario is trying to take advantage of.

So the point is to try to get nearer than 5 feet, just to make a sneak attack, and then pull back at the normal melee distance (no grapple, no spring attack).
This, I think, seems plausible since the rogue can Hide and enter into the space, briefly. And because of the total concealment provided by a succesfull Hide he can´t be subject to the AoO that would foil he´s attempt to enter the space of the defender.

Hope this makes more sense now

 

[Aaron2]

And because of the total concealment provided by a succesfull Hide he can´t be subject to the AoO that would foil he´s attempt to enter the space of the defender.

Why do you think that a successful Hide check grants total concealment? If you move into his square, you don't have concealment and thus can't Hide. You can only Sneak Attack someone in this situation if your flanking him or he's flat-footed.


Aaron

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can only Sneak Attack someone in this situation if your flanking him or he's flat-footed.

Strictly, if you're flanking him or he's denied his Dex bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[sfedi]

Why do you think that a successful Hide check grants total concealment? If you move into his square, you don't have concealment and thus can't Hide. You can only Sneak Attack someone in this situation if your flanking him or he's flat-footed.

Because you were Hiding in the OM.
(note that at 5 ft, OM grants you concealment, which let's you attempt to Hide)
It's like Hiding from cover, then attacking with a missile weapon.
But in this situation, you are Hiding with concealment, right beside the target and attacking with a melee weapon.

PS: Someonw mentioned about Move Silently checks, agreed on that, they are necessary too.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But in this situation, you are Hiding with concealment, right beside the target and attacking with a melee weapon.

Yes, but if you have concealment from the OM, then so does he, which means you can't Sneak Attack...

If you've moved closer than five feet (somehow) so that he doesn't have concealment, then you lose your own concealment before you attack, so you are not striking as an invisible attacker, and he retains his Dex bonus (unless he's flat-footed), which means you can't Sneak Attack...

-Hyp.

 

[sfedi]

Isn't the fact that you have total concealment prior to the attack MAKE the target be flat footed when you attack him (just as when it happens in the first rounds of combat)?
(maybe it happens too when you strike from cover, hidden, but the rules aren't clear on that)