So did anyone buy Champions of Ruin?

[Voadam]

"Mere" 20th-level characters? WTF are you people talking about?

Oh, wait, this is FR, so every tough foe has to be gauged against Elminster or one of the Seven Sisters, is that about it? A 20th-level character is sort of like a "mere" 1st-degree black belt or something?

From reading the posts, I'm not sure if you guys are botherred that the three big E's are weak for their assigned CR, or that you'rre bothered that their CR itself is too low.

Some people do run epic level games. Having these be roughly the level of a balor advanced by two HD is a bit dissapointing for those game needs, particularly when balors can advance much farther just as presented in the MM and not counting adding on class levels (advancement to 60 HD and huge would be what, CR 41?). I would think the elder elemental evils would be solidly much farther in the epic monster CR range and do not think disappointment at statting them as non-epic range monster challenges is unreasonable.

 

[Arnwyn]

kilamanjaro, arnwyn,

Could you post some infos about the PrCs?

I just try to understand if the book is good enought for a non FR setting.

Sadly, I only post at ENWorld from the office (and my book isn't with me), so I won't be able to help you. Hopefully kilamanjaro or others can...

Very little material is reprinted. I think 4 feats are from the BoVD, but 2 are revised for 3.5, the other 2 are straight reprints.

More than 4 were from BoVD. Indeed, 2 were revised for 3.5 (one made better, one made worse).

 

[Arnwyn]

"Mere" 20th-level characters? WTF are you people talking about?

"WTF"? Hmm. I guess you didn't read Alzrius's post very well. He was comparing Mask (deity) to Kezef (Elder Eternal Evil). In this case, relatively speaking, 20th level characters are indeed "mere" in comparison.

From reading the posts, I'm not sure if you guys are botherred that the three big E's are weak for their assigned CR, or that you'rre bothered that their CR itself is too low.

The CR itself is too low.

 

[Cold0]

Sadly, I only post at ENWorld from the office (and my book isn't with me), so I won't be able to help you. Hopefully kilamanjaro or others can...

No problems. I can wait even a day or two; if I would buy the book, I will have to order it at Amazon, wait for the release date and the delivering time (10-15 in Italy). So I can wait 2-3 day for have more infos about Champion of Ruins.

 

[DK]

Is there someone that could talk about the contents of the book and of his quality? It's a book presumed to be about playing evil, evil organisations and other, not a mere book on EEE! (I don't care at all about their CR!)

Thanks!

 

[Felon]

CRs are way too low. These are NOT beings that should be defeatable by mere mortals, regardless of their level.

Why? Are they supposed to be on the order of major deities?

Some people do run epic level games. Having these be roughly the level of a balor advanced by two HD is a bit dissapointing for those game needs, particularly when balors can advance much farther just as presented in the MM and not counting adding on class levels (advancement to 60 HD and huge would be what, CR 41?). I would think the elder elemental evils would be solidly much farther in the epic monster CR range and do not think disappointment at statting them as non-epic range monster challenges is unreasonable.

I've been playing FR since 3e, and have a dozen or so of the setting sourcebooks, but the hype on these three has somehow eluded me (I assume they're big wheels from pre-3e days). The ranges quoted are 21-28, so why are you now saying they are statted as non-epic range challenges? 21 and up is epic. This strikes me as the same odd complaint people had about the arch-devils and demon princes in the BoVD. What is a 25th-level character supposed to fight exactly, if every badass is not just supposed to be badass, but badder than 25th-level badasses? What does mean to be epic-level if you still can't put the kibosh on major evils?

"WTF"? Hmm. I guess you didn't read Alzrius's post very well. He was comparing Mask (deity) to Kezef (Elder Eternal Evil). In this case, relatively speaking, 20th level characters are indeed "mere" in comparison. The CR itself is too low.

He said that Mask was worried about him. Deities can worry about the activities of a CR 20ish being's activities. Don't ask me why he wouldn't simply destroy such a "weak" creature, because that question could be applied to lots of beings. FR may have active, anthropomorphic deities, but for whatever reason don't make a habit of just poofing in and annihlating anyone that offends them.

 

[Sammael]

Kezef is constantly and continually chasing Mask across the planes, and Mask is running away from him because he cannot kill him. Kezef bit Tyr's hand off, and Tyr can't regenerate the hand. It took the collective strength of several gods (some of them greater powers) to temporarily imprison Kezef, before (IIRC) Cyric released him. So, Kezef should be more powerful than all Faerunian gods, individually.

 

[kilamanjaro]

I'm also posting at work (sticking it to the man, as it were) so can't provide details on prereqs or anything like that. I'll try to post something tonight. I'm only about half way through the book, but so far all the DM advice on running evil characters has been very applicable to any setting. I'm just now knocking my way through the organizations chapter, some of these were presented in Lords of Darkness, but these write ups are more of the info players would want. How to join, benefits of joining, bases of operation, resources, role of adventurers in the organization, etc. Very handy stuff.
I can tell you from memory that the Justice of Weald and Woe must be an elf. It's a prestige class for members of the elven supremicist group, trained to hunt humans. It's a good ranger/rogue type archer class. The Vengeance Knight is a heavy armor wearing fighter type employed by the Knights of the Shield. He gets reduced penalties for wearing heavy armor and bonuses against declared enemies of the Knights of the Shield and bonuses against anyone who damages him in combat.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Kezef is constantly and continually chasing Mask across the planes, and Mask is running away from him because he cannot kill him. Kezef bit Tyr's hand off, and Tyr can't regenerate the hand. It took the collective strength of several gods (some of them greater powers) to temporarily imprison Kezef, before (IIRC) Cyric released him. So, Kezef should be more powerful than all Faerunian gods, individually.

Well, you must remember, that was when they were blatantly ripping off historical mythologies as opposed to creating their own. Heck, how about the one where Cyric gets a bride for half the year in 'Hades' and the other half the bride gets to be above ground. Classic man!

 

[Voadam]

Well, you must remember, that was when they were blatantly ripping off historical mythologies as opposed to creating their own. Heck, how about the one where Cyric gets a bride for half the year in 'Hades' and the other half the bride gets to be above ground. Classic man!

I get the tyr fenris wolf part, but what does chasing mask rip off? The wolves chasing the sun and moon in norse mythology? The hound who always catches running after the fox who always gets away who were struck into stone by Zeus to end the paradox? Something else I'm just not seeing?