So... Do Summoned Creatures Suck?

[Kinneus]

I'm playing a Necromancer/Pyromancer in a Dark Sun game. He's level 10, and I was all excited to take Summon Shadow Servant. A permanent undead servant! My plan was to summon him in the first battle of every combat and try to keep him going for the rest of the day. Played right, it could be like a Daily that is used in every Encounter of the day.

I've only played two sessions with this guy and his little skeletal minion, but every time the Shadow Skeleton has died in the very first combat. Worse, both times he died on the very first round... to a single hit. It left a sour taste in my mouth, because both instances involved the enemy monster using a close burst attack of some type, meaning that my summon didn't even eat up an enemy attack. He just got summoned, walked in to combat, and got shattered like he was nothing.

I was aware that a frontline fighter with Mage defenses and a fraction of the Mage's HP wouldn't last long, but I was hoping that it would survive at least one hit. I haven't quite given up on it yet... it's possible I was just unlucky, or that I deployed the guy wrong. Also, I have to mention that both combats involved what I'm pretty sure were Level+4 or higher Elites that the DM was using as a sort of ghetto-Solo, so we may've been facing higher-than-average damage values. Still, I'm starting to get discouraged when one of my Dailies has literally no effect not once, but twice.

So what are people's experiences with Summons, in general, or Summon Shadow Servant in particular? Are they worth it? Are they gimped? Or is it something you really have to invest in with the right feats and Paragon Paths to make worthwhile?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

A player of mine has a psionic character, and he used a psychic summon a few times until, he too, realized it sucks.

Compare it to Flaming Sphere. If it's worse, do not take.

I find they work better for monsters. A monster could summon a minion every round as an at-will and not be broken. I wonder how well that would work as a PC power.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Summons CAN be excellent value in general. They are one of those things though that are somewhat situational, kind of need to be buffed some, and how good they are depends a good bit on how the DM interprets certain parts of the rules.

Used purely as combatants they are usually a bit marginal, but it really depends. When you need a blocker or have a summons that can do some special stuff like fly or OA then they can be good. They can flank too, which can be handy, and sometimes summoning one in a hard to get to spot is useful.

They also have non-combat applicability as they can set of traps, etc. Here's where the DM comes in because it REALLY isn't clear what sorts of things they can do. I mean a summons is a creature of some kind, but if you strictly interpret the rules it can do only a VERY limited amount of stuff that happens to be mentioned in the keyword description or the stat block. If the DM is going to be super literalist then they get less valuable, but if the summons can do ordinary things that a normal creature could do, like carry things, talk, etc. then it is more handy.

Being able to have one all day makes them more flexible too. They could be really handy when exploring for instance.

 

[Incenjucar]

It depends on the summons and how you build around it. For example, an invokers Blade Angel summons has a minor action attack, meaning they can attack three times a round - get an ally to drop an all-round damage booster on that baby and you have some serious damage potential.

 

[Kinneus]

Thanks for the responses so far.

A rules question I had that I forgot to mention in OP: can summons be effected by ongoing damage, daze, stun, and other effects?

The compendium is silent on the issue, but since they count as 'creatures,' I'd assume they can be. During the second time my summon went pop, it was actually ongoing 10 damage that did him in. So if they had some sort of immunity to effects, that might've saved the little bugger.

Like I said, though, I doubt it. So that brings up the question... what happens to a dazed summon? Does that mean you can only use one action 'through' it for the duration of the daze?

 

[Incenjucar]

They're creatures, so yeah, ongoing etc works on them as per usual. So do buffs and temporary hit points and surgeless healing.

I believe your interpretation of the effect of dazed on them is accurate.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

They're creatures, so yeah, ongoing etc works on them as per usual. So do buffs and temporary hit points and surgeless healing.

I believe your interpretation of the effect of dazed on them is accurate.

Yeah, there's never been a really thorough official discussion of this.

TECHNICALLY by RAW it is the caster that is making the attacks through the summons, so it would seem like it would be governed by the summoner's action economy, as summons don't expend actions of their own or have their own pool of actions or place in the initiative order (they don't get a turn, so they can't technically lose actions).

In terms of RAI I would think that dazing would do as stated. Other conditions could also be a bit ambiguous, stun obviously, and then there's dominated... I think the intent with all of these is reasonably clear, but again if you parse the letter of the rules these conditions don't really have any impact on a summons.

Honestly, maybe the best way to run it is summons really are NOT materially affected by these things, it gives them a bit of an edge (though if they have OAs stun and daze will prevent those).

 

[Matt James]

I have a hybrid character that summons creatures and then "buffs" them with temporary hit points (Wizard|Paladin, though a Wizard|Cleric would work too).

 

[DracoSuave]

Wow, it went down in a single hit!?!

Okay, let's look at what effect that has.

You're fighting something that can, in a single hit, bring you below bloodied. That will cost you three healing surges to get up to full. By the enemy attacking and defeating your summons, you've saved two healing surges, plus whatever effects that attack would have had upon you.

One daily to get two free healing surges? That's a -deal-.

 

[keterys]

Well, except it was a burst attack that dropped it, in this case.

Scarier is the fact that in multiple combats they've been exposed to close attacks that would bloody his character.