D&D 4E So how do we do charm effects in 4E?

[SteveC]

One of the things that the designers of 4E have talked about a fair bit is removing "save or die" effects from the game. To this end, they're also talking about lowering the number of related spell effects, so I thought it might be interesting to talk about one of them: charms (or mind control in general, if you wish).

In previous editions, you had a charm cast on you, you received a save, and if you failed it, you were taken out. In 4E we've moved to a system where the caster makes a check against a defense rather than a save, so I expect that's what we'll see for charms.

Once that happens, your character is effectively out of action, so how do we deal with that? In looking at Star Wars Saga, we have the "Mind Trick" which pretty much says once you're affected you're out of luck. Mind Trick does have certain restrictions on how and when it can be used, however, but the important thing is that once you are hooked, there's no way out.

I don't see that as being what they'll do for 4E, so does anyone have a thought?

In looking at poison in Saga, the main "ongoing effect," we see that the poison makes a check against you every turn, and if you beat it several times in succession, you're off the hook. Does that make sense as an option? It seems a bit ... clunky to me.

So what does everyone think? Of course, and WotC staff members are hereby invited to come in and spill as many beans as they like...

--Steve

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

In looking at poison in Saga, the main "ongoing effect," we see that the poison makes a check against you every turn, and if you beat it several times in succession, you're off the hook. Does that make sense as an option? It seems a bit ... clunky to me.

It's likely to be something like this. Either the caster just makes a new check each round to keep the person charmed (ala hold person as it was changed in 3.5) or you limit each charm spell to a very specific use that is easier to balance other spells against.

You've seen some of this design philosophy in the alternate wildshape ability for druids in PHBII and the new polymorph spells. The idea is that if a spell does just ONE very specific thing that it is easy to see the effect of it. If it allows you to do all sorts of things(and is worded in a vague way) the power level of the spell varies wildly from casting to casting and from DM to DM.

Take Charm Person, for instance. It lets you make someone into your best friend. I've seen interpretations from "You're his best friend but orders are orders and he's evil, he'd kill his best friend if he was ordered to" to "Sure, I'll take you inside the king's chamber and let you kill him even though I'm supposed to guard him with my life. You're my friend and I'd do anything for you! What's that? You'd prefer I kill him myself...no problem." One interpretation makes the spell completely useless for combat(which maybe it should be given its a level 1 spell) and the other one makes it more powerful in a lot of ways than dominate person, which is much higher level(and capable of solving problems that would take a good 5-10 spells if the PCs decided to do it themselves instead of using a charm).

So if you are going to do charms properly, you need to be able to figure out fairly accurately what effect the spell will have to balance it properly. A spell that makes the enemy lay prone during its next action is quantifiable. You know that the enemy will lose its next action and it will get the minuses for being prone for a round and it'll have to spell and action getting back up again. You can use that information to compare it to a spell that uses force to knock the enemy prone.

However, if a charm spell lets you have an enemy fight for you then it suddenly has a lot of effects at once. You have:
1. Prevented damage to your group(since the enemy isn't attacking you)
2. Did damage to your opponents(since the enemy is now attacking them), and the amount of damage you are doing varies heavily based on the creature you've managed to charm
3. Paralyzed the enemy (since he's not taking non-combat actions that could help his allies)
4. Buffed your party (as the enemy is now providing flanking bonuses for your allies and possibly casting its own buffing spells to help them)
5. Given a miss chance to your allies (since the enemies might target the charmed creature instead of them)

It's essentially 5(or more) spells in one. Which is a bane of balance.

I think you'll see the limiting of effects to shorter duration, more defined effects for charm spells. With a couple more open spells mixed in that have possibly extremely short duration with the ability to resist them each round.

 

[SCMrks]

In the Forgotten Realms, Cormyr adventure (I think it is called Shattering of the Weave) the priest of Shar have an artifact that can dominate people but the target has to fail 5 saving throws to be dominated. WoTC has said the adventure trilogy is a prep for 4th Ed. Maybe that is a peek at how mind controls will work. A character will get several save attempts before being affected.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think they said somewhere that charms will be nerfed (and effectively replaced by psionics).

 

[frankthedm]

NPC Treat charmer as +2 steps higher on the Hostile to Helpful scale. In combat, victims suffer -5 Penalty on attacks against the charmer and possibly the charmer's allies.

 

[HeinorNY]

I think I remember one of the designers saying something about his ideas on flesh to stone spells. The character would not turn to stone immedeately, instead he would first be slowed, then prevented walking and then finally petrified, or something like that.
So maybe those save-or-suck spell will have more gradable effects in 4E.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

Some ideas of how enchantment could be handled:

-You spend standard or move actions to mantain the effect. (you "gain" actions throgh the controlled guy but you loose some actions yourself) maybe even full round actions when it is too powerfull.
-The effects last one (1) round, or 1 round/5 levels
-The effect ends when the subject takes any damage
-Limit the effect by limiting the actions you can make them do: one charm might make your foe take move actions as you wish, another might make them do normal attacks (or at will abilities) a more powerfull version could make them do per encounter or even per day powers. A more powerful version could make him even attack himself. Another one could make you talk through your charmed enemy (and nothing else) another can make you dance, etc.

 

[frankthedm]

I think I remember one of the designers saying something about his ideas on flesh to stone spells. The character would not turn to stone immedeately, instead he would first be slowed, then prevented walking and then finally petrified, or something like that.
So maybe those save-or-suck spell will have more gradable effects in 4E.

For stoning, I'd guess it is
each round:

+2 AC, -1 reflex defence, -2 to hit, -1 move

AT zero Reflex defence or zero move, You are fully petrified.

 

[Dausuul]

For stoning, I'd guess it is
each round:

+2 AC, -1 reflex defence, -2 to hit, -1 move

AT zero Reflex defence or zero move, You are fully petrified.

I'd go with something like:

1st round: Lose your move action
2nd round: Lose your standard action
3rd round: Lose all except immediate, swift, and free actions
4th round: Lose all actions
5th round: Petrified

 

[Rechan]

I think they said somewhere that charms will be nerfed (and effectively replaced by psionics).

They said Enchantment was regulated to Psionics, not Charms.

I fully suspect that Wizards will have access to "Charm Person". But stuff like Suggestion/Dominate Person/Modify Memory/et al will be psionics' bag.