So how's Kingmaker working out?

[TheClone]

This might work well then for the mixed medium format I am thinking about. This will be an online game with Maptool and Ventrilo. But between those sessions I was planning on making heavy use of forums for some of the kingdom management, building, etc.

That way we can handle kingdom building details and background stuff on the forums and then during actual sessions we can still handle kingdom building, but it will be more of the role-playing portion of kingdom growth than going over the administrative portion which would have been handled on forums.

I think this AP will work well in that format. The Maptool and Ventrilo bit helping move the campaign along at a speed akin to a normal face-to-face game as opposed to the snail's pace of a Play-by-Post. We'll see how it works out, still in the formative stages of how to run it at this point.

You could use Birthright. Because the not-kingdom-management-part can't be that large. You do advance more slowly in online games according to my experience. So maybe you should focus on the management part in the forums.

 

[IronWolf]

You could use Birthright. Because the not-kingdom-management-part can't be that large. You do advance more slowly in online games according to my experience. So maybe you should focus on the management part in the forums.

We would still handle role-playing aspects of kingdom management, but the portions where we determine income, which building are you going to build and some of those things I am picturing being handled on message boards between sessions. Then the interactions with neighbors, squelching some of the issues that might have arisen within the kingdom via politics or other we would handle during sessions. So still plenty of time for the role-playing of that aspect during real sessions, just shuffling the administrative piece to the message board format.

From what I have seen the Adventure Path has good mix of kingdom building and then defending the kingdom going on in it. In fact there are sidebars that mention how to completely put the kingdom building in the background if the players have zero interest in that aspect.

I think the kingdom building stuff looks interesting and certainly contributes to the dynamic of the Kingmaker AP.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

kingmaker

I had been planning on running Kingmaker but I have to admit I'm having second thoughts. In some ways, I think this AP takes on too much:

1) being Paizo's first sandbox AP
2) developing rules for building structures
3) developing rules for an economy
4) developing rules for exploring and expanding a kingdom


I kindof wish they'd just gone with a traditional sandbox game, without putting so much effort into the kingdom building aspects, I think. Maybe if they'd cast the pcs as lewis and clark type explorers, tasked with surveying a region, but not with ruling it, I might like it more.

As is, it feels to me like the kingdom building rules aren't sufficiently developed -- what is presented feels more suited to developing a single town, rather than an entire network of cities.

Ken

 

[IronWolf]

As is, it feels to me like the kingdom building rules aren't sufficiently developed -- what is presented feels more suited to developing a single town, rather than an entire network of cities.

Are there specific areas in the kingdom building rules that you feel aren't sufficiently developed? Why do you feel they are best suited for a single town as opposed to several?

Note: not trying to be argumentative, genuinely curious and just trying to get more input and thoughts as I work on developing a Kingmaker campaign. Trying to catch the gotcha's ahead of time before they sneak up on me!

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

hmm

I'll need to go back and reread the rules to say definitely, but here are some things that come to mind:

1) it doesn't seem to matter how many towns the PCs create. And their position on the map doesn't seem to matter for purposes of how many hexes the PCs control

2) there doesn't seem to be an incentive to found towns next to natural resources, or rivers

3) the rules for running kingdoms basically boil down to ability checks. There may be some interesting complexity there but so far I haven't seen it.

4) the population figures seem way off what I would expect for a newly settled area -- the kingdom gets very large, very quickly.

5) the rules for selling magic items seem really wierd, and it seems like powerful magic items show up way too quickly.

I know that's all kindof vague and honestly it's just impressions I have formed after reading the modules. It might be that this stuff plays way better than (for me) it reads.

Ken

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Also

I think the setting needs more lairs and significant dungeons to explore. Although, that's pretty easy for me to add on my own, so it's a minor point.

Ken

 

[IronWolf]

I'll need to go back and reread the rules to say definitely, but here are some things that come to mind:

Given the basic reading I have done of the modules so far I can certainly see where you get the things that came to your mind.

1) it doesn't seem to matter how many towns the PCs create. And their position on the map doesn't seem to matter for purposes of how many hexes the PCs control

There is a thread somewhat related to this over on the Paizo boards - here. Seems some folks build lots of towns, some focus on one area - with some folks wondering if something later in the AP will make having more or less towns beneficial.

2) there doesn't seem to be an incentive to found towns next to natural resources, or rivers

I don't recall one off the top of my head either - still have to do a more thorough reading as well though. Maybe a house rule or some other benefit for characters taking advantage of this?

3) the rules for running kingdoms basically boil down to ability checks. There may be some interesting complexity there but so far I haven't seen it.

Yeah, ultimately it comes down to an ability check. It seems there are some things in planning though that can influence the success or failure of that check.

4) the population figures seem way off what I would expect for a newly settled area -- the kingdom gets very large, very quickly.

The growth does seem fast. For some sections though the module writers recommend allowing a year or so of time to pass for the characters to work on their kingdom, maybe that helps explain some of it?

5) the rules for selling magic items seem really wierd, and it seems like powerful magic items show up way too quickly.

I didn't really notice this, but our group that I game with now tends to be on the magic heavy side - the DM is good on making that not be as good as it sounds though....

I know that's all kindof vague and honestly it's just impressions I have formed after reading the modules. It might be that this stuff plays way better than (for me) it reads.

Nah, I like the initial thoughts. Sounds like we are about at the same spot in reading and have read to nearly the same depth. Enough to get a rough feel for it, but not a thorough reading yet. Thanks for putting those impressions out there.

 

[James Jacobs]

4) the population figures seem way off what I would expect for a newly settled area -- the kingdom gets very large, very quickly.

First off... thanks for all the feedback here, folks! Kingmaker does a LOT of really weird new stuff, and I knew going in that it wasn't going to be perfect. But I was ceratinly hoping it would be fun!

As for the population figures... one quick note here: actual numbers for population are not linked to the actual rules for building cities or kingdoms, so you can change those population figures as you wish to generate totals that feel more natural/realistic for the type of game you're running. In my experience over the past many years, population totals are one of those areas (like Batman's alignment or what hit points REALLY mean) that we gamers all have a really hard time settling on a consensus as to what they mean. So I intentionally left the actual population figure "unattached" to the rules; a kingdom's Size score is the only real way to quantify its population in terms of the rules. Whether a Size 30 kingdom has 30 people, 300 people, or 300,000 people doesn't really matter, so you can pick the one that makes the most sense to you.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

population

James, thanks for your response!

That's good to know about the population.

I was worried that if I significantly reduced the population figures, it might cause a problem during the part of the AP where the kingdom goes to war. It sounds like that isn't the case!

Ken

 

[IronWolf]

First off... thanks for all the feedback here, folks! Kingmaker does a LOT of really weird new stuff, and I knew going in that it wasn't going to be perfect. But I was ceratinly hoping it would be fun!

Thanks for stopping by the thread! I am looking forward to running Kingmaker because of it being a little different. I think the group of players i have in mind for this campaign will enjoy the kingdom building aspects.

As for the population figures... one quick note here: actual numbers for population are not linked to the actual rules for building cities or kingdoms, so you can change those population figures as you wish to generate totals that feel more natural/realistic for the type of game you're running. In my experience over the past many years, population totals are one of those areas (like Batman's alignment or what hit points REALLY mean) that we gamers all have a really hard time settling on a consensus as to what they mean. So I intentionally left the actual population figure "unattached" to the rules; a kingdom's Size score is the only real way to quantify its population in terms of the rules. Whether a Size 30 kingdom has 30 people, 300 people, or 300,000 people doesn't really matter, so you can pick the one that makes the most sense to you.

Excellent. Thanks for the clarification on population.