IcyCool said:
Denaes said:
But the undead writeups I saw didn't have PC template instructions. Thats why I didn't think it was 3.5.
I may be mistaken here, but no book has PC template instructions. If you want your PC to apply a template, you go through the same process as an NPC/monster, except that you apply LA instead of CR.
The link I gave you to (
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm) does have a template for PC consuptions and instructions on how to apply it:
SRD said:
Ogres As Characters
Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.
* +10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
* Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
* Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
* An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
* Racial Skills: An ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, and Spot.
* Racial Feats: An ogre’s giant levels give it two feats.
* Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
* +5 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
* Level adjustment +2.
It tells you everything you need to know for playing the race as a player. What it modifies, what is changed, etc.
Now I was partially wrong in this statement, there are a few undead types who have character templates like this. I think like 5 out of 20 (total guesstimate) and I didn't see them in my first flip through the Undead types.
The MM doesn't have these quick template PC statups for the common undead types and you'd assume that it would be there rather than just saying "we have undead class levels, but you can just apply the +ECL to your character and use these other ones" when those other ones wern't in PC format. It just seemed that they would take those common undead and provide the PC templates as well.
That was why I found it generic/vague. They tell you about two alternate ways to do something, then don't follow up on one of the methods (templates) for the basic undead, just the new undead.
IcyCool said:
Denaes said:
They said there were two options for PCs: Templates & Undead Levels. The templates just seemed to mention a type of undead and what the ECL was, not an explicit writeup of player bonuses/benefits.
The level progressions not only make playing those undead PC-friendly, they make playing those undead available as options to 1st level characters. And if a creature or template doesn't include an LA, then that means the creature or template isn't intended/is too powerful for PCs.
The Ghoul is flat out mentioned for use with PCs, has an alternate Undead Class and it says you can apply the undead type as a template to PCs, but there is no writeup in template form of what bonuses/effects happen to the player.
None of the undead were viable players in the MM. They wern't assumed that you would be one. I also understand that with a +LA means you can't be a first level character with said template. The section on playing monsters doesn't say that if they don't have PC notes or LA like the Ogre does, that they can't be used. It says that the most common and obvious races for PC use are statted out.
Just because the Ghoul isn't statted out with a beneficial PC template block doesn't mean that they're unplayable. But I'd assume a book that makes them playable would provide that template block for ease of use.
IcyCool said:
Denaes said:
The few Undead races there were didn't cover the basics - player zombies are far more a staple of Roleplaying than all the other undead sans vampires.
Except, of course, that zombies are mindless. Which is why they aren't suitable for a PC.
The
D&D zombie is mindless and isn't suitable for a PC.
Many games, movies & books do have different zombies and they are extremely popular to play. A section talking about "so you want to play a zombie" explaining what undead types would actually fill your need (like the Ghoul or Necropoliton) would be handy. Same with skeletons.
I mean it's great that
D&D zombies &
D&D skeletons in their 1/4th CR grandour arn't great for PCs, but you may want to play a zombie or skeleton and need to know what your options would be in the system.
IcyCool said:
Denaes said:
In the hour I was looking at the book they had the few undead classes and a lot of undead statblocks and templates for them, but no notes on how to apply those templates to the stat blocks AND make them into PCs. They didn't effect the # of hit dice and I think that was the only thing that modified the ECL.
You appear to be confused as to how playing a monster character works. Your ECL is the sum of your Class levels + your Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment(LA). Templates rarely, if ever, increase the number of hit dice, but they usually have a Level Adjustment.
You're right that I probobly don't fully understand playing Monsters (which is why I created this thread and have been asking questions about it) but I understand that your ECL is your Class Levels + RHD + LA. Some templates apply bonuses (like Fast zombie or Unkillable zombie) but don't have a +LA and don't apply a bonus to HD (but do apply a CR bonus), so it would be like a free benefit for a PC, which doesn't seem right.