So is this indeed how it works?

[Celebrim]

I pointed this out when they previewed some of the devils. It isn't just solo monsters that this is true of.

In order to achieve the PC vs. monster combat feel they wanted, most monsters are very durable but don't do very much damage. As a result, while PC vs. monster combat works out (because PCs aren't that durable but do alot of damage), monster vs. monster combat is often a little bit ridiculous.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Do they really not have any other cool abilities? Sounds like you're missing something. *fingers crossed*

 

[Colmarr]

It's not epic. It's long and boring. It's I claw you, you claw me, I claw you, you claw me, nothing else.

The mechanics of a pnp rpg can never portray a fight the same way a human imagination can. If you look at this scenario and see

"I claw you.. you claw me"

rather than

"the two mighty beasts struggle, each attempting to find a weak spot in the other's scaled hide. Khalathoth, the ancient red, lashes out with its tail and catches Meliantis a stinging blow to the snout, causing the gold dragon to stagger backwards. Trees shatter under the bulk of the falling beast"

then I personally consider that a fault of the storyteller, not the 4e rules structure.

 

[hong]

It's not epic. It's long and boring. It's I claw you, you claw me, I claw you, you claw me, nothing else.

Of course it's boring. That's what happens when you play out a fight that doesn't involve the players.

 

[Henry]

I'm reminded of a scene from Oasis of the White Palm, and its companion module, Lost Tomb of Martek. A mighty and evil Efreet Pasha had been freed on the land, and the PCs were tasked with finding its bane to destroy it. They do indeed find a Noble Djinn and free it to challenge the Pasha. However, they are evenly matched in power, and cause all sorts of havoc on the land as they fight, and the PCs must find ANOTHER way to help the Djinn beat the Efreet. The two even show up in random encounters, fighting like two Warner Brother Tasmanian Devils, before whirling off into the sunset again.

It kind of brings to mind this image, of two titans so powerful all they can do is hurt one another, not kill one another.

 

[Victim]

Monsters seem to have proportionately more HP and less damage than characters of a given level.

It sounds like most of their cool abilities involve fire damage to which they're resistant.

 

[Kordeth]

Monsters seem to have proportionately more HP and less damage than characters of a given level.

It sounds like most of their cool abilities involve fire damage to which they're resistant.

Yes, but don't forget that quote from W&M that an ancient red's breath weapon can "strip the fire resistance right off you." If the gold has a similar trait, suddenly those fire attacks come back in style.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

FYI, the Dragons breath weapon has a secondary attack that, if it hits, the targets fire resistance is negated until the end of the encounter.

/end thread

 

[Erithtotl]

I think the 'titanic struggle' idea might hold a little more water with me if the dragons actually had some options. But they are so limited in what they can do, that the ONLY thing that makes sense for them is clawing at each other.

I realize that part of 4e is to simplify monsters and make the more oriented as player-specific challenges, and I think that really works at the lower-level (I don't want to have to know an Orc archer's wisdom score and skill points in knowledge (architecture)). I also understand that most monsters only last a few rounds, so giving them dozens of abilities just bogs things down. But a dragon might be an entire adventure unto itself. It's both a super-powerful enemy and an arch-villian, possibly game ending. But this guy is just, well, boring. I realize that you can tweak monsters and give them extra special aiblities, thus raising their level, but can they even go above 30? And what does that do to game balance? A 3.5 red dragon of this level is a 19th level sorceror. I agree, that's probably too much complexity, but isn't this to far the other way?

 

[Erithtotl]

FYI, the Dragons breath weapon has a secondary attack that, if it hits, the targets fire resistance is negated until the end of the encounter.

/end thread

It's fire attack does 30 points of damage, so that doesn't change anything.