So is this indeed how it works?

[Stalker0]

It's fire attack does 30 points of damage, so that doesn't change anything.

Or it can now use its bite which does 46 damage, and its immolate foe ability which does 36 damage and 15 fire ongoing, so at least 51 damage.

 

[Erithtotl]

Alright let me back up a step and try and explain where I'm coming from a little clearer.

It's not about two dragons fighting each other.

I'm totally on board with the 4e concept of simplifying NPCs and monsters. I love the idea that a group of enemies can be described and be combat capable with only a few lines of stats. But when you get to villians, NPC or monster, I want more detail. While I don't care if his minions are paper-cutout thinly developed, the evil vampire or dragon or devil I want to have the same level of complexity as the players. To me this makes him more interesting to myself and the players.

Everything I've heard of these high level monsters so far they seem so simplified, reduced to a handful of mediocre attacks and one, maybe two special abilities.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

It's fire attack does 30 points of damage, so that doesn't change anything.

I was going to quote a bunch of monster stats but in the end it comes out to about 55 damage per round on average. With the dragons HP that would take about 25 rounds. Given that its two monsters not meant to go up against each other (damage and HP are off) and the fact that its only two creatures, the encounter wouldn't actually take that long. Fluff wise it would only take 2 and a half min.

 

[A'koss]

I've seen the Red's stats and there's a fire aura, a rechargable Immolate ability and 2 action points it can spend... It's still going to be a long, epic fight against another dragons of it's level, but that IMO is a good thing. These guys are at the very top of the food chain and just short of gods themselves.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Alright let me back up a step and try and explain where I'm coming from a little clearer.

It's not about two dragons fighting each other.

I'm totally on board with the 4e concept of simplifying NPCs and monsters. I love the idea that a group of enemies can be described and be combat capable with only a few lines of stats. But when you get to villians, NPC or monster, I want more detail. While I don't care if his minions are paper-cutout thinly developed, the evil vampire or dragon or devil I want to have the same level of complexity as the players. To me this makes him more interesting to myself and the players.

Everything I've heard of these high level monsters so far they seem so simplified, reduced to a handful of mediocre attacks and one, maybe two special abilities.

So you want to spend 4 hours creating just one monster? Beyond that I dont get your post. On what basis are any of the attacks mediocre?

 

[Incenjucar]

It's not epic. It's long and boring. It's I claw you, you claw me, I claw you, you claw me, nothing else.

Yes, and so is a fight between two angry tigers or dinosaurs or whatever.

So very long and boring.

--

Honestly, if you want more complex monsters, take two monsters and compile their abilities.

No, seriously, try it.

 

[Saitou]

I hope you people are taking into account the fact that anyone standing anywhere near the vincinity of an ancient dragon is taking an energy-appropiate thirty-some damage every turn.


Every


Turn

 

[Erithtotl]

So you want to spend 4 hours creating just one monster? Beyond that I dont get your post. On what basis are any of the attacks mediocre?

So there's only two extremes? No, I don't want to spend 4 hours creating a monster. But I'd have no problem spending 30 minutes, even an hour, on the ultimate villian of my entire campaign, so that the players perhaps don't see every attack and ability he has in 3 rounds of combat.

 

[Incenjucar]

I hope you people are taking into account the fact that anyone standing anywhere near the vincinity of an ancient dragon is taking an energy-appropiate thirty-some damage every turn.


Every


Turn

BORING

 

[Erithtotl]

Yes, and so is a fight between two angry tigers or dinosaurs or whatever.

So very long and boring.

--

Honestly, if you want more complex monsters, take two monsters and compile their abilities.

No, seriously, try it.

I don't understand anything in your post.

We are not talking about tigers. We are talking about the ultimate, iconic villian of fantasy gaming. And I have no idea what you mean by 'compliling the abilities of two monsters'.