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So it's the old "Edition War" excuse to dismiss people?

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Dannyalcatraz

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the party's Striker constantly getting into trouble and attacking random targets instead of focusing on killing one target first
Well, I think that's a perfectly fine PC to run, AND one that is virtually impossible to system-proof. LEEEEEROY JENKINS!!!! will not be denied!

They're not tactical minded enough.

That doesn't describe our group of Sun Tzu Junior Fanclub Members...but we're not perfect. We make the occasional mistake...especially when a melee guy has to use magic, or the magic-users have to get their armor dirty in melee. But 4Ed is a lot more forgiving than other game systems.

4Ed's design balance is kind of like bowling with the bumpers in place. It's still possible to send the ball off the lane, but its a lot harder.*





* I've bowled for many decades, and managed to have a peak average of 193 in one league...and as good as I am, I still managed to have a ball jump from my lane onto an adjacent lane in league play. More than once. Got strikes each time, too.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
First, I'd say it depends upon what kind of game you want to run. If, for example, you intend to run a game simulating an author's novel in which there were characters of vast disparity of power, 4Ed's design would do a spectacularly bad job of emulating that setting.
Setting aside the questionable desireability of having /PCs/ of different power-levels (the extreme ends could be NPCs - side kicks and deus ex machina types), if balance isn't desired a balanced system like 4e can be used simply by assigning resources (like levels) asymmetrically. Getting imbalance out of a balanced system is simplicity itself and you have a good idea of just how great the disparity will be, as well.

sometimes too much balance is bad. It can lead to stagnation and stalemates in gameplay.
Lack of choice can do that, certainly, but that's also a form of imbalance.

And one of the consistent complaints levied at 4Ed is its combats can be a boring grind.
There are many consistent complaints leveled at 4e that are simply unfounded. The foundation for this one is the earliest adventures written for the game. Monsters initially had higher defenses and more hps and lower damage figures - and the early published adventures continued the 3e practice of using significantly overlevelled monsters to represent 'bosses,' rather than using solos. MM2 adjusted defenses, and MM3 increased damage figures. So combats became faster. Another factor with the early reports was relatively low level, 1st level characters have only 1 encounter and 1 daily, and otherwise depend on their at-wills. Any combat over 3 rounds necessarily includes at-wills, so very long combats can get repetitive (unless the DM has placed terrain-based powers for the PCs to utilize, or the players try to improvise, of course). 4e combats can still be long, in rounds, but they aren't often 'boring' - that is, characters all remain involved and are rarely reduced to flailing away with at-wills.

Compared to the issues other editions had with low-level combat and lack of in-combat options for particular classes, even with what tendency towards the 'grind' it may still have, 4e comes out well ahead.

As I've played the game over the past few years I've seen it happen in person. There is something in 4Ed's strict adherence to balance that has made combat less fun for many players.
Again, balance does not cause the grind. Imbalance in early monster and adventure design did.

Part of it (and only part of it- I don't have all the remedies) is that one roll per attack sequence that predominates in 4Ed. This happens in other games, too, but 4Ed's version just seems to drag for some reason.
That reason is called 'confirmation bias.' The number of rolls needed to resolve 4e powers isn't out of line, at all. Earlier eds were much more generous with multiple attacks, and rolling damage once and saving throws for each creature in a fireball for half damage is the same number of rolls as to hit each target, with 1/2 damage on a miss, and rolling damage once.

Simply put, combat lacks sparkle.
Now /that's/ subjective. ;) And, I'm not going to argue it. If 4e combat doesn't 'sparkle' for you, and some other game does, by all means, play the sparkly one.

And it didn't have to be like this. There are other ways to balance games that are out there. HERO is my game of choice, for instance. Despite combats that can be as long as or longer than 4Ed combats, I've never felt a HERO combat was "grindy."
There's a lot of variation among Hero characters, because they are so customizeable, but, in general, they have a small number of powers that tend to skate close to whatever the campaign maximums are. You're generally making mechanically very similar attacks each phase. And, yes, Hero combats take a /long/ time, especially for the amount of time they represent.

The genius of Hero is just how effects-based it is. It really goes all the way, power names are just mechanical place-holders, and a given power can have any remotely appropriate 'special effect.' It can manage just about any concept you can think of. Playing a character that's so close to your concept of it is exciting, in itself. No ed of D&D can touch Hero in that regard - including 4e, though it did take a halting step in that direction by divorcing flavor text and mechanics. But, then, Hero is one of the best systems of all time.

Or at least, it has been at points in its history (I'm not so familiar with the latest version). My one major objection to Hero is the open-ended skill list, which as I put it "creates incompetence" (one way this manifests is the point-inflation of skill-heavy packages: when 'professional skills' were introduced way back in Champions! II, 2points in "Lawyer" made you a competent member of that profession, able to earn a living at it - 20 years later, in Hero 5th, being a Lawyer is something like a 60-100pt package deal). 3e suffers from the same issue to a lesser degree, with skills like Craft and Perform that each represent an endless variety of possible skills you could define into being, and thus make everyone who doesn't invest ranks in them bad at. The 5e playtest also shows signs of the same malady.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I find that the consistency takes out some of the dynamism in the earlier editions.
I suppose, if you define dynamism as using different rules, sub-systems, and terminology to accomplish similar things for no particular reason.

I mean, once you look at what all those inconsistencies actually represent, what's 'dynamic' about every cleric in the world being able to cast Hold Person at 3rd level? Or about a fighter who chooses "Improved Trip" at low level being locked into tripping things for the rest of his career?

The way the 4e system is balanced narrows the game's potential applicability to a single band within the fantasy genre while the editions that focus less on mechanical balance are a better fit to a wider variety of fantasy applications.
You think so? Without any rule variations, how well do various eds of D&D handle a setting without deities, and thus Clerics? How well do they retain class & encounter balance in a campaign with very few magic items? How well do they handle campaigns paced towards long periods (days) between combat encounters. Very low or high wealth? Variations in the concept of how magic or spells work? The answer is that most editions don't handle any of those variations well, while 4e, with inherent bonuses, leader classes of every power source, and all classes having a balance of at-will, encounter, and daily powers, stay reasonably functional across the board. What's more, by divorcing flavor and mechanics, 4e can handle quite a lot of variation beyond that, as well.
 

You think so? Without any rule variations, how well do various eds of D&D handle a setting without deities, and thus Clerics? How well do they retain class & encounter balance in a campaign with very few magic items? How well do they handle campaigns paced towards long periods (days) between combat encounters. Very low or high wealth? Variations in the concept of how magic or spells work? The answer is that most editions don't handle any of those variations well, while 4e, with inherent bonuses, leader classes of every power source, and all classes having a balance of at-will, encounter, and daily powers, stay reasonably functional across the board. What's more, by divorcing flavor and mechanics, 4e can handle quite a lot of variation beyond that, as well.

The OGL/D20 system, which had a multitude of different genres and alternative, even non-fantasy settings based off 3rd edition, kinda escaped your part of the world did it?

The mechanical attentions that 4e has pretty much fixes the notion that you are going to play precisely the way the designers want you to. Even if you don't want to play that way. And no, most fantasy literature doesn't work the way the 4e rules do.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Setting aside the questionable desireability of having /PCs/ of different power-levels (the extreme ends could be NPCs - side kicks and deus ex machina types), if balance isn't desired a balanced system like 4e can be used simply by assigning resources (like levels) asymmetrically. Getting imbalance out of a balanced system is simplicity itself and you have a good idea of just how great the disparity will be, as well.
A quick way to measure this is to look at one of the great prototypes of the D&D adventuring party and see how well edition x can handle it: the Fellowship of the Ring.

Great disparity in character abilities (levels in D&D), not a Cleric in sight, huge imbalances in individual wealth, and one member with goals (and alignment) signficantly at odds with the rest.

As a 1e party it could work. I'm not at all sure about whether 3e or 4e could handle it at all.

Lan-"Best. Meta. Thread. Evar."-efan
 

Can we rename this thread 'Dominos'? Cause man it sure as heck delivers. :lol:

I would personally like to thank all participants for being so very entertaining.

We need a popcorn smiley.
 

The mechanical attentions that 4e has pretty much fixes the notion that you are going to play precisely the way the designers want you to. Even if you don't want to play that way. And no, most fantasy literature doesn't work the way the 4e rules do.

For the record, no. No it doesn't. The mechanical attentions that 4e has literally do the opposite. They make it easier to drift the game hard and know you'll still have a workable game at the end of it.

If I'm playing a social intrigue game I need to allow for the Bard and the Warlock being able to crank their diplomacy modifier. And for the wizard casting minor illusions. But fundamentally I can run the game as a linked set of skill challenges with a little combat mixed in.

On the other hand if I'm trying to run 3.X as a social intrigue game at 9th level (3.X just being the game I know best), the Bard is going to be spamming ludicrously broken Diplomacy checks to turn anyone helpful, and making the most ridiculous bluffs with Glibness. A +30 bonus there on top of a good charisma and class skills. The Cleric's Zone of Truth is going to really upset the intrigue and needs to be written round. Wizards and Bards can tell most people to do stuff with Suggestion and can appear to be who they want to be with Alter Self. Or invisibility. Or one of the image spells. And a (lesser) Geas is entirely possible from Bard or Wizard.

If I want to run an overland travel segment at the same level, the Wizard can Teleport to make sure everyone sleeps the night in their own bed. Overland flight to explore along the route. Rope Trick. Scrying. I could go on.

Either way in 4e I can run the sort of game I want to with very little working round the PC abilities but, being generally competent, the PCs can all bring something to the party. If I were playing a less balanced system I'd have to check through all the abilities (see the spells I've picked out) and work out their effect on the game world. Because 4e is balanced I can run a game the way I want to without disproportionate work.

And I'm going to come right out and say it. The 4e mechanical implementation of Dark Sun is better than the 2e one despite Dark Sun having been written for 2e. The absence of clerics doesn't fundamentally alter the game.
[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], I'm not sure how well 1e does handle the Lord of the Rings. What level would you say Gimli was at at Helm's Deep? And how many orcs did he kill? He must have been taking hit point loss but I don't recall significant recovery time.

4e handles Lord of The Rings fine. It just does it the way DM of the Rings does. Gandalf's the DMPC. The hobbits are one party. And Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn, and Boromir are a second.
 

If I'm playing a social intrigue game I need to allow for the Bard and the Warlock being able to crank their diplomacy modifier. And for the wizard casting minor illusions. But fundamentally I can run the game as a linked set of skill challenges with a little combat mixed in.
Well, I prefer a freeform style, so what you have exemplified is precisely the approach that wouldn't appeal to me.

As for Lord of the Rings in 4e:

Gandalf: This foe is beyond any of you. Run!
Gimli: That's not balanced! Why are fighters always getting nerfed! Wizards get to do all the cool stuff.
Aragorn: Yeah, this encounter should be designed for my level!
Pippin: Oh, I can still use my daily on it! I haven't used it yet.
Frodo: What is the goal of this encounter anyway?
Gandalf: Run!!!
Frodo: OK, I run (pushes himself three squares over on grid). What is my XP reward?
Balrog: >>smashes and burns everyone<<
Whole Adventuring Party: HEALING SURGE, please!
 

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