So, Wandavision?

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Of course Wanda didn't mean to do anything bad...but, so?

A few years ago, some guys were drag-racing through a residential neighbourhood. One jumped the curb and killed two kids playing in the front yard. He kept saying over and over how it was an accident, how he didn't mean to kill those kids.

Good. I would hope it wasn't on purpose. Doesn't mean they aren't responsible.

False equivalency. Drag racing is illegal for a reason, because it can and does cause accidents like this. It is inherently dangerous and they knew better than doing that, but chose to not heed the warnings of the law. Accidentally killing someone due to your own negligence is manslaughter.

Wanda didn't kill anyone (that we know of. We still don't know what happened to the Bee-Keeper), and was not doing anything unlawful or negligent that resulted in the harm she caused to the people of Westview.

Though an accidental consequence of your purposeful negligence does put you at fault for any damage/harm caused as a result of your actions, if you were not in control at the time of your action and were actively trying to keep others from being harmed as soon as you discovered that you were harming others, you are not at fault. If someone was mind-controlled into shooting another person, they are not guilty of murder. The same applies to Wanda. Her emotions took control of her, and thus she is not at fault for her actions in Westview.

That is not to say that she has a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card in the future. She is aware of her true potential now, and if she chooses to not seek out help controlling her powers, she is indeed at fault for any harm she causes in the future. It's very similar to Cyclops. If he killed/harmed someone accidentally with his powers when they first manifested, that wasn't his fault, as he was not in control. However, if he had the capability to stop his laser-vision, and killed/harmed someone, it would be his fault.

Make sense? Fault is dependent on control of one's actions. A drunk driver is in control of being drunk and driving. A drag-racer chose to drag race. Wanda did not choose to be the Scarlett Witch anymore than I chose to have green eyes. If I am not at fault for having green eyes, Wanda is not at fault for the Westview Incident.

Hayward and Agatha had bad intentions, and are cartoonishly typical bad guys. No doubts there.

But they didn't do nearly the damage to Westview residents as Wanda did. That's just the truth.

Trying to do harm is a greater crime than accidentally causing harm. What they accomplished doesn't matter, their intentions do. Attempted murder is a greater crime than accidental killing.

If someone lost their parents, and in their grief started drinking and as a result killed some people while driving drunk...we'd take away their license and force AA and counseling. We wouldn't be like "Well, he was sad." There may be jail-time in there, and maybe that's a good idea and maybe it isn't, but the other stuff? Completely reasonable.

Wanda should have had a talk with Uncle Ben. If you're that powerful and it's emotion-based...see a bloody therapist. It's the responsible thing to do.

Grief doesn't force you to start drunk driving. If you choose to drink and drive, your grief doesn't get you off the hook. You're still at fault for drunk driving. Think of this incident more like someone being strapped into a car. This car is special, though. It is hooked up to you in order to determine your emotions, causing the car to go faster the more anxious/distraught you are. The only thing that you have control of is the wheel. In the car are two people, one person that wants to kill you and take the wheel in order to run over as many people as possible, and the other that is constantly trying to strangle you in order to stop the car so they can be free to get out and take over the world. To complicate things even more, many of the people outside the car are actually killer mannequins that are being controlled by the people inside your car, and you can't tell the difference between a real person and a killer mannequin.

This is basically the situation Wanda was in during this series. She had control of the wheel (the direction of her power), but not the force she applied to it and the consequences of her power, while just coming out of a very traumatic and stressful experience, and also being attacked from seemingly every direction.

 

[Tonguez]

If that were the case, Haward wouldn’t have been able to track construct-Vision’s vibranium from the outside. Vision (and presumably also the kids) were made manifest and real within the Hex. That the reality could only be sustained while the hex lasts presents the ultimate dilemma Wanda must face.

Downplaying the stakes of that dilemma not only does a disservice to Wanda’s character (and the storytelling that got us here), it also stands contrary to evidence that the show has previously given us.

Not really

the appearance of Zombie Vision in episode 2 (3?) was a tell that Wanda was aware that she had created an illusion and that the Vision we were seeing in the Hex was her creation (albeit at the time many of us thought she was puppeting real Visions remains) - that Wanda increasing lost control of Hex-Vision was proof of her loss of sanity as much as it was Hex-Vision being an independent sentient conciousness and indeed in the last episoide Hex-Vision himself confesses that meeting White Vision has disabused him of the beleif that he was the ‘real’ Vision.

Vision logically accepts that he is not a real being and thus despite emotional ties to Wanda is able to ‘give up the ghost’.

 

[Dire Bare]

Once superpowered - or magically empowered - beings start being arrested and placed on trial, the court system will need people who can provide expert testimony. And who better to do so than someone who is still a respected and qualified medical professional while also being an expert in magic?

True, but . . . do the writers want to tell that kind of story? It's a way to go, certainly, but not the only way to go.

Bringing "realistic" consequences into the super-hero genre. It's almost a sci-fi approach, "What if there really were super-heroes? How would the world react?" It's certainly been done before,, both in the Marvel comics and, to a degree, in the MCU . . . but do they want to escalate that storyline? They certainly could and make some more great movies and TV shows as the world steps up its reaction to powered beings and escalates responses like the Sokovia Accords and the Raft . . . . maybe the governments of the world will unite and create sentinels . . . .

 

[Dire Bare]

Another comment I have on the current discussion: Wanda "freed" the people of Westview (at the cost of her own family) almost as soon as she realized that it was her doing it. Before the confrontation scene in the final episode, we have reason to believe that she didn't have any idea that she was causing them pain.

I wouldn't say she had no idea . . . . it wasn't addressed directly, but I really got the impression she had some sort of disassociative personality disorder. At times, blissful and ignorant of the pain being caused, and the ethics of what she was doing . . . at others seemingly very aware that the Hex was her domain to control and protect, including those within, even Vision and the kids.

But, yeah, once she was forced to fully confront what was going on, it took a good moment or two for her to process it all . . . but then she made the right call and ended the Hex, her control over Westview, and the existence of Dream Vision and the kids.

 

[MarkB]

True, but . . . do the writers want to tell that kind of story? It's a way to go, certainly, but not the only way to go.

Bringing "realistic" consequences into the super-hero genre. It's almost a sci-fi approach, "What if there really were super-heroes? How would the world react?" It's certainly been done before,, both in the Marvel comics and, to a degree, in the MCU . . . but do they want to escalate that storyline? They certainly could and make some more great movies and TV shows as the world steps up its reaction to powered beings and escalates responses like the Sokovia Accords and the Raft . . . . maybe the governments of the world will unite and create sentinels . . . .

It certainly seems like more of a subject to be covered during a TV series than a movie - I was frustrated that Civil War did a poor job of really addressing the issues of accountability and responsibility, but I can see how doing so would have bogged it down.

I feel like the MCU movies have done a generally good job of slowly building up their world from having almost no publicly-known superpowered aspects to them being a part of that world's everyday life, and all of that helps that setting feel more real. Having some of that worldbuilding expanded through the TV shows seems like a good way to go.

 

[Eric V]

Wanda didn't kill anyone (that we know of. We still don't know what happened to the Bee-Keeper), and was not doing anything unlawful or negligent that resulted in the harm she caused to the people of Westview.

Though an accidental consequence of your purposeful negligence does put you at fault for any damage/harm caused as a result of your actions, if you were not in control at the time of your action and were actively trying to keep others from being harmed as soon as you discovered that you were harming others, you are not at fault. If someone was mind-controlled into shooting another person, they are not guilty of murder. The same applies to Wanda. Her emotions took control of her, and thus she is not at fault for her actions in Westview.

That is not to say that she has a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card in the future. She is aware of her true potential now, and if she chooses to not seek out help controlling her powers, she is indeed at fault for any harm she causes in the future. It's very similar to Cyclops. If he killed/harmed someone accidentally with his powers when they first manifested, that wasn't his fault, as he was not in control. However, if he had the capability to stop his laser-vision, and killed/harmed someone, it would be his fault.

Make sense? Fault is dependent on control of one's actions. A drunk driver is control of being drunk and driving. A drag-racer chose to drag race. Wanda did not choose to be the Scarlett Witch anymore than I chose to have green eyes. If I am not at fault for having green eyes, Wanda is not at fault for the Westview Incident.

Trying to do harm is a greater crime than accidentally causing harm. What they accomplished doesn't matter, their intentions do. Attempted murder is a greater crime than accidental killing.

Grief doesn't force you to start drunk driving. If you choose to drink and drive, your grief doesn't get you off the hook. You're still at fault for drunk driving. Think of this incident more like someone being strapped into a car. This car is special, though. It is hooked up to you in order to determine your emotions, causing the car to go faster the more anxious/distraught you are. The only thing that you have control of is the wheel. In the car are two people, one person that wants to kill you and take the wheel in order to run over as many people as possible, and the other that is constantly trying to strangle you in order to stop the car so they can be free to get out and take over the world. To complicate things even more, many of the people outside the car are actually killer mannequins that are being controlled by the people inside your car, and you can't tell the difference between a real person and a killer mannequin.

This is basically the situation Wanda was in during this series. She had control of the wheel (the direction of her power), but not the force she applied to it and the consequences of her power, while just coming out of a very traumatic and stressful experience, and also being attacked from seemingly every direction.

The number of people who would love to use this: "My emotions took control of me, and thus I am not at fault for my actions" to escape blame for what they have done is staggering. In law, even if you lose it and murder your boyfriend after finding him in bed with someone else...you still go to jail, intensity of emotions notwithstanding.

"Wanda was not doing anything unlawful or negligent that resulted in the harm she caused to the people of Westview." Might be because there's no law yet about magically trapping people in an endless loop that causes them to suffer so much they hope to die. Besides, this isn't really about the law. It's about responsibility and accountability. The way people are arguing here, it seems she is not being held to any level of responsibility nor accountability. She gets to just fly off (and still not get the therapy that she so desperately needs as the people of Westview will tell you).

Oh and Wanda absolutely had more control than you are giving her credit for: She changed the Vision, she threatened the military to back off and let her live in her Hex, she messed with the guy in the beekeeper outfit, and she flung Monica away. She knew what she was doing there: protecting her made up world against what she perceived as a threat. There's no denying that.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The number of people who would love to use this: "My emotions took control of me, and thus I am not at fault for my actions" to escape blame for what they have done is staggering. In law, even if you lose it and murder your boyfriend after finding him in bed with someone else...you still go to jail, intensity of emotions notwithstanding.

The fact that people will lie to make themselves look better does not negate the fact that there are people that have are actually not guilty of their crimes. Just because a ton of murderers claim that they're innocent doesn't mean that we should imprison the innocents. That's why we have the famous saying of "innocent until proven guilty".

"Wanda was not doing anything unlawful or negligent that resulted in the harm she caused to the people of Westview." Might be because there's no law yet about magically trapping people in an endless loop that causes them to suffer so much they hope to die. Besides, this isn't really about the law. It's about responsibility and accountability. The way people are arguing here, it seems she is not being held to any level of responsibility nor accountability. She gets to just fly off (and still not get the therapy that she so desperately needs as the people of Westview will tell you).

There are laws against kidnapping others. There are laws against torture. However, there is also the poorly named "insanity defense" that states that you are not guilty of a crime if you are not in control of your actions at the time. In a real court of law, I would suspect that Wanda's defense attorney would argue that though Wanda's powers are her actions, she did not have control of them and thus is not guilty of the crime.

Oh and Wanda absolutely had more control than you are giving her credit for: She changed the Vision, she threatened the military to back off and let her live in her Hex, she messed with the guy in the beekeeper outfit, and she flung Monica away. She knew what she was doing there: protecting her made up world against what she perceived as a threat. There's no denying that.

When did she change the Vision? She did threaten the military, but there is no proof that Wanda was aware of the torment she was putting through the people of Westview at the time, and SWORD did try to kill her. The beekeeper was early on when she obviously did not completely know what was going on, and if her powers are based off of her emotions (as is evident throughout this series and the movies), she would obviously have responded to a trespasser in her home with anger. Even then, she managed to protect Monica from harm.

She does need therapy and training, but that will probably be further explored in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. The show's finale would be a bit less dramatic if it ended with Wanda in therapy, IMO. That is likely going to be off-screen, if it does happen.

You have seemed to have taken it upon yourself to prove Wanda's guilt, so I will ask you to present your case for her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Prove that she is guilty of knowingly and willingly imprisoning and torturing the town of Westview. The burden of proof is on you. Wanda was suffering from grief and trauma, and her emotion-driven powers took control without her knowing what they were doing at first and created the Hex.

 

[Rune]

Not really

the appearance of Zombie Vision in episode 2 (3?) was a tell that Wanda was aware that she had created an illusion and that the Vision we were seeing in the Hex was her creation (albeit at the time many of us thought she was puppeting real Visions remains) - that Wanda increasing lost control of Hex-Vision was proof of her loss of sanity as much as it was Hex-Vision being an independent sentient conciousness and indeed in the last episoide Hex-Vision himself confesses that meeting White Vision has disabused him of the beleif that he was the ‘real’ Vision.

Except, no. Vision certainly is Wanda’s creation and cannot exist outside of the Hex, but we know that he isn’t an illusion, because the vibranium he is made of is real and trackable.

Vision logically accepts that he is not a real being and thus despite emotional ties to Wanda is able to ‘give up the ghost’.

Except that the conclusion of that logical paradox is that both reconstructed ships (the one with all new parts and the later one made with all of the old parts) simultaneously are AND are not the original ship. Neither Vision is real, but also, both are!

 

[Staffan]

But, Wanda seems to have removed herself from society. For another, it is not clear that any mortal force can imprison her.

The show did demonstrate that it is possible to nullify the magic of even a witch as powerful as Wanda, so imprisoning her should be possible as long as you can find someone to rune it up. Getting her into that cell is a different matter though.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Except, no. Vision certainly is Wanda’s creation and cannot exist outside of the Hex, but we know that he isn’t an illusion, because the vibranium he is made of is real and trackable.

Exactly this. If Hawyard could track Vision, he was real. Vision was independent of Wanda, having agency and his own personality. He depended on the Hex to live, just like we depend on the atmosphere to live.

Except that the conclusion of that logical paradox is that both reconstructed ships (the one with all new parts and the later one made with all of the old parts) simultaneously are AND are not the original ship. Neither Vision is real, but also, both are!

Shrodinger's Vision! We just need to collapse the superposition to figure out where Vision actually is.

Oh. . . wait. That already happened, didn't it?