So we might mess up, so what? Forked Thread: Fudging the Numbers in 3ed

[Stoat]

I've never had these issues. . . at least not really. I mean, unless you are running for a bunch of people whose character's you are totally unfamiliar with, how can you choose/create ACs that are so high they can't ever be hit?

I am not very good at math, and I don't think much about numbers. I usually don't know what my player's stats are. I basically rely on the game designers to handle the math.

And even if you did, let's say it was a dragon - on the fly someone could make a spot check to notice a "weak point" in the dragon's scales (for example) so that PCs purposefully aiming for that point have to hit a lower AC. . .

And then the next time my players are in combat against a balanced monster, they'll want to notice it's "weak point" and I've got something of the opposite problem.

Mostly, I wish that the 3.X designers had put something like Monte Cook's article or the table from the 4E DMG in the 3.0 or 3.5 DMG.

 

[Pbartender]

As long as fun is being had, its all good. . .

That's a pretty big "as long as"... what happens when fun isn't being had?

In the past, I've seen campaigns and gaming groups break up over similar problems.

 

[el-remmen]

And then the next time my players are in combat against a balanced monster, they'll want to notice it's "weak point" and I've got something of the opposite problem.

Huh? It was a unique (or very rare) occurance.

 

[el-remmen]

That's a pretty big "as long as"... what happens when fun isn't being had?

In the past, I've seen campaigns and gaming groups break up over similar problems.

Well, if fun isn't being had that is another issue entirely. . . The thing is mistakes and miscalculations should not be so big a deal they break up your group!

I mean, if they a both so frequent and obvious that folks aren't having any fun. . . that is an issue for the group to try to figure out - or for the individual player to say "this game is not for me".

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, if fun isn't being had that is another issue entirely. . . The thing is mistakes and miscalculations should not be so big a deal they break up your group!

What if the are? (Not that it ever happened to us...)

 

[Pbartender]

The thing is mistakes and miscalculations should not be so big a deal they break up your group!

No, they should not... but that doesn't mean they can't be.

Our particular problem was a DM who was unable or unwilling to admit to or fix his miscalculations and mistakes. These were mistakes that were causing weekly character deaths, and regular TPKs.

A more recent problem was a player who throwing off my calculations and making me think I was making mistakes (and making me think I wasn't making other mistakes) as a DM, because she was cheating on her stats and dice rolls.

But normally, with reasonable players and a humble DM... Yes, mistakes happen. They can be fixed. That's not unque to any specific edition or RPG. Although, different people will have an easier or harder time making the fixes and adjustments on the fly, simply because the way they think and process information is better suited to one style of rules than another.

There's nothing inherently better or worse about it... It's just different styles of playing the same game.

 

[amethal]

It was pretty easy to pump up DCs to "unsavable" range with the Red Wizard PrC. Tack on a Quickened Haste, and a Red Wizard with initiative might autokill 2 PCs in the first round of combat. How do you fix that on the fly?

PS

Personally, something like this :-

DM: The Red Wizard launches into his spell before any of you can react. Fortitude saves from everybody, please. <Glances at notes and sees DC is 31>

Elf wizard (ever the optimist): Is it enchantment/charm?
DM: What do you think? No!
Elf wizard: In that case I got 13. Is that enough?
DM (smirks): Afraid not.
Dwarf Barbarian: I got 29.
DM: What did you roll?
Dwarf Barbarian: I rolled a 17.

<DM, to self: Crap, DC 31 was too high if Dwarf Barbarian failed a Fort save after rolling a 17; better reduce it to a more sensible level; supposed to be tough so how about DC 25 so Dwarf Barbarian needs a 13>

DM: That spell was incredibly hard to resist. All the stories you've heard about how Red Wizards focus all their attention on a couple of schools of magic are clearly true. However, calling on all your inner reserves you somehow manage to reduce its effects. It'll take more than that to faze Dwarf Barbarian! You get the feeling you don't want to let him do that to you too many more times, however ....

 

[Henry]

<DM, to self: Crap, DC 31was too high if Dwarf Barbarian failed a Fort save after rolling a 17; better reduce it to a more sensible level; supposed to be tough so how about DC 25 so Dwarf Barbarian needs a 13>

DM: That spell was incredibly hard to resist. All the stories you've heard about how Red Wizards focus all their attention on a couple of schools of magic are clearly true. However, calling on all your inner reserves you somehow manage to reduce its effects. It'll take more than that to faze Dwarf Barbarian! You get the feeling you don't want to let him do that to you too many more times, however ....

However, suppose the Elf Wizard has a save bonus of +5 (very believable, if the Barbarian has a +12). He's still screwed on nothing but a twenty. You can fix it on the fly, but in 3.5 characters can have stats so widely divergent in the same group, with nothing but the core 3 books even, that a challenge for one party member is still certain death for all the others, making it hard to make a challenge that the whole group can share. You're going to have some difference between your wizards and your fighters, mind you, but you could have a seven to ten point gap between characters of even the same CLASS in 3e. It's one of the things that bugs me about 3.5 once play gets over 11th level or so.

 

[el-remmen]

What if the are? (Not that it ever happened to us...)

Well then the group needs to figure out what to do. . . at that point it becomes a social dynamic issue.

 

[el-remmen]

But normally, with reasonable players and a humble DM... Yes, mistakes happen. They can be fixed.

All my posts assume reasonable players and DM with some self-awareness.

My gaming time is too precious to deal with anything but.