So... what about WFRP?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Go for Core + Magic + Bestiary + Plundered vaults (6 advantures n a hardback volume).

If you are only getting 2, go for Core + Bestiary. (though do get the magic book at some point)

Also, There are two ways of char gen: Rolling or simply selecting your career manually.

Though just picking is not really supported by the rules (but a second roll is). I think the starting careers can be slightly unbalanced, since some offer access to better talents then others, but for the most part, that doesn't matter that much. (But I think few would chose hedge wizard if they can also get wizard apprentice)

It's even possible to leave a undesirable career prematurely, even if it costs some extra XP.

I really like the concept of the career advancement and the concept of career exits (and the Demon (?) Slayer career exit is really "evocative" )

WFRP can be downright brutal - going against overwhelming odds (this can already be one enemy more than you have allies) can be very dangerous. Luckily, with fate points and fortune you might yet live to die another day.

 

[TGryph]

I have been playing in a WFRP campaign for about a year now, and I do not like the system. Then again, I don't like Class-based systems, which is basically the same as WFRP's Profession system. Having each of your Profession-Based skills firmly set at your attribute number seems limiting to me. I am also not a fan of Fate point type mechanics, which has a big impact on the game.

While the combat system is a definite improvement over D20, a personally loathe having to stop and refer to a chart to see what a successful hit has done - which is what the system does after the character's Wounds are gone. It IS grittier than D20 and more fun, just not my preference.

That being said, I love the setting...lots o' darkness and grit. I could see the setting being used with a less restrictive-type system like Gurps or Basic Role-Playing.

Again YMMV but I am not a fan.

TGryph

 

[glass]

1) What's the system like? Is it really that rules-light?

Rules light? Not remotely (although it is arguably a little lighter than D&D). It is however a pretty well put together system.

2) How unbalanced is the CharGen system? My perusal looks like it'd be fairly unbalanced (since you randomly determine starting class, correct?).

You randomly determine starting career (they aren't really classes), but in 2e they seem to pretty well balanced.

3) It's fairly dark, right?

A bit like ferraris are fairly expensive. Well, maybe that's a slight exageration -you can really fine-tune the darkness level to taste, but its not happy bunnies stuff.


glass.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Been playing in a friend's WHRP game for several weeks now as a Bretonnian Knight-Errant. The GM allowed us to select our starting careers instead of rolling them, which is certainly an option if you want to avoid having a really bizarre company of adventurers.

Have to admit it's pretty fun and a nice change of pace from the standard over-the-top stuff you find in D&D. With the whole Chaos stuff, it does have some Cthuluesque overtones. And playing a combat-centric character can be a dangerous choice, becuase combat (especially when just starting out) can become very deadly very quickly if the dice gods turn against you.

Magic is far less common, with low-level 'casters' being very limited, and priests can't even cast basic spells until they reach their 2nd career. Magic items are pretty much unheard of for most folk. And I guess there's some kind of "backlash" mechanic to keep higher-level casters from getting to full of themselves (haven't seen it as the party's wizard is still an apprentice), but the GM has hinted that it can be pretty nasty.

I've taken a look at Black Industries' homepage, and they've got a lot of free adventures, so you won't need to worry about paying for any of those right off the bat.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Let's not undersell magic eh?

There are whole academies where magic is studied and battle mages are part of the army.

It's not THAT rare.

For the elves and dwarves, that's even more true than the Empire.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Come boxing day, I'm getting a gift card to my local gaming store (my mother and her "I'm getting you a gift card... where to?"). Now, since I don't really wanna buy 3e stuff (unless it's Eberron, but, enh...), and I've already got a backlog of minis to paint, I was thinking of buying Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

Flipping through it, it looks like it'd be an interesting game.

Just so you know, I'm a player, not a DM of the game. The campaign is fun, but I had some problems with the rules.

So, I have a few questions:

1) What's the system like? Is it really that rules-light?

Parts of it aren't rules light, for instance critical hits. We've imported a few rules ad-hoc from DnD, such as bull rushing. (This came in handy when my character repeatedly tried to shove another character off a ten foot drop. It worked the first time, too.)

Much of it is rules light though, such as combat advantages. Each advantage gives a +10% to +20% bonus to attack rolls. (For instance, four opponents ganging up on one guy each get +30%, if the victim is tied up or grappled that's another +20%. Ouch.)

2) How unbalanced is the CharGen system? My perusal looks like it'd be fairly unbalanced (since you randomly determine starting class, correct?).

You randomly roll starting stats, which I hate, and you have to roll them in order instead of arrange to taste, which I also hate. I got very high stats (too high; I don't want to play an Int 38 character!) but, ironically, my character's Agility is low even though he's an Outrider who is supposed to ride horses, use archery and throw nets. I got a free bow (which I've only used once) and a free net (which for some reason never misses, despite supposedly only working less than a third of the time). My Riding skill never works due to low Agility and partial chain mail.

If the DM didn't houserule that we all got a free hand weapon, I would have been totally screwed despite having generally very high stats. The DM let some of us "trade" careers.

Dwarves seem overpowered. I don't know what the penalty for being a dwarf is, but the +10% bonus to Melee skill (without any kind of fate point penalty) seems like overkill. (Of course, you could roll low on Melee skill, but generally it's overpowered.)

If you're only using humans, I would say it's not so much unbalanced as "less fun". You can remove a lot of unbalance by using some kind of point buy and letting characters choose their first career. Rolling for at least some talents would probably still be fun.

For such a harsh game, they really need decent parrying rules. They do have them, but in order to parry, you need:

1) A special talent (or feat-like thing) which is hard to get. One of the elves in the party has it, and it's really good.
2) A shield. This is actually hard to get early on in the game if it's not in your starting trappings. My character has a shield; it's a literal life-saver.
3) An off-hand weapon.

Since you don't get to pick starting talents, you may end up with something useless or something that doesn't fit. For instance, my character has Ambidexterity. He can wield a dagger in his off-hand with no penalties or use it to parry things (but not both). However, the damage system means you never use such a wimpy weapon as a dagger, and the shield gives bonuses against ranged attacks. I'll never give up the shield, which means I'll never use that talent.

3) It's fairly dark, right?

Yes. We have already dealt with people committing human sacrifice. (We hanged the victims, after conning one into helping us track down a demon.) My character has picked up an insanity point already (along with half the party) when we saw a glowing green rock (warp stone?), then he tried to inflict that on another NPC (who freaked out, but apparently didn't go mad). Said NPC was part of a group of corrupt guards, and we ended up beating them unconscious, stripping them, tying them up in an "embarrassing" position, then attached a severed demon's head to them "as an active participant in their actions" (if you know what I mean). Alas, they were only put into the stocks, rather than stoned to death.

On that note, unarmed combat really sucks in the rules, which I know from going through two complete battles using only improvised weapons and unarmed attacks. Maybe there's some stunt to get decent at it, but at the start you don't get to pick these things.

 

[Henry]

You randomly roll starting stats, which I hate, and you have to roll them in order instead of arrange to taste, which I also hate.

That part I like most, because (1) unlike 3E and 4E D&D, your character can die very easily, and is almost expected to die at some point; the rules make it extremely easy to come up with another character and drop back into the action quickly. Some don't like not being able to attach to a PC long-term, but it definitely leads to a very different kind of game. The dark fatalistic humor really feeds into this, much like Call of Cthulhu.

If the DM didn't houserule that we all got a free hand weapon, I would have been totally screwed despite having generally very high stats. The DM let some of us "trade" careers.

Actually, that part is a standard rule, not a house rule, if you're using the 2nd edition WFRP rules. Hand weapon, a dagger, a backpack, I think some food, and a few gold crowns is equipment everybody starts with in the character creation section (before the careers part).

Dwarves seem overpowered. I don't know what the penalty for being a dwarf is, but the +10% bonus to Melee skill (without any kind of fate point penalty) seems like overkill. (Of course, you could roll low on Melee skill, but generally it's overpowered.)

Dwarves are great on melee, but suck on non-combat, and they have a terrible movement rate. These two things in a game as dangerous as WFRP are lethal, even as tough as dwarves are, because it's a good think if you can avoid a combat once in a while.

For such a harsh game, they really need decent parrying rules. They do have them, but in order to parry, you need:

1) A special talent (or feat-like thing) which is hard to get. One of the elves in the party has it, and it's really good.
2) A shield. This is actually hard to get early on in the game if it's not in your starting trappings. My character has a shield; it's a literal life-saver.
3) An off-hand weapon.

Slight correction: you can parry, if you ready a half-action to do it. (Say, attack with the first action, ready with the second.) The dodge talent some careers get is separate from the parry, and you can dodge AND parry if you've readied to parry, too. Off-hand weapons, and shields, mean you don't have to ready to parry; shields give you a small bonus to parry. That's why sword-and-board is VERY important in WFRP, just as in real life.

Since you don't get to pick starting talents, you may end up with something useless or something that doesn't fit. For instance, my character has Ambidexterity. He can wield a dagger in his off-hand with no penalties or use it to parry things (but not both). However, the damage system means you never use such a wimpy weapon as a dagger, and the shield gives bonuses against ranged attacks. I'll never give up the shield, which means I'll never use that talent.

Now, most careers do get a choice of talents, but it's usually an either/or.


I love the game, if you can't tell. I tried to even get a Play-by-post started on Cricvs Maximvs, but it didn't fly too well. In some ways, it's "the anti-D&D", because

1. Caution is essential; if you commit to a battle you can't handle, and you're not fast enough to get away, you can easily die.
2. Characters can through play wind up with missing fingers, missing noses, hacked off hands or legs, missing eyes, etc. But don't worry! They make prosthetics for most things. Think "Pirate" and you'll do just fine.
3. Magic is scarce. A single magic weapon might be the focus of a whole campaign or campaign arc. Spells themselves are chaotic affairs; if you make a really bad (one in ten thousand, I believe) roll, you could be carted off to Hell by a summoned Chaos Demon while casting a light spell. More likely, the spell you cast will curdle all milk around you, or make your tongue glow blue, or make you smell like rotting meat for 10 minutes, or something similar, whether it works or not. Spells are the raw stuff of chaos, and they can literally change the course of a battle, but you must be cautious if working magic.

A Warhammer campaign can be grimly heroic, or it can be investigative, or can be darkly humorous; I was watching Sweeny Todd recently, and figured its plot would do well in a Warhammer game.

 

[Piratecat]

We have already dealt with people committing human sacrifice. (We hanged the victims, after conning one into helping us track down a demon.)

Sacrificed and THEN hanged? You guys are harsh

Reading Henry's post reminded me of a comparison I heard once. In D&D, you save the world and end up an epic hero, loved by Kings and dripping with jewels and magic items. In WFRP, you save the world and end up dying alone. In a ditch. Eaten by rats.

And it's fun!

 

[BadMojo]

That part I like most, because (1) unlike 3E and 4E D&D, your character can die very easily, and is almost expected to die at some point; the rules make it extremely easy to come up with another character and drop back into the action quickly.

Is it fairly Traveller-esque, without the death during character creation thing?

 

[pogre]

If you are really concerned about character balance. WFRP is probably not for you. I love WFRP, but half the fun is raising your Rat Catcher from the scum of the sewers to the scum of adventuring. I think PC's two quotes have captured the feel of the game very well.

Dwarves are far less overpowered in the new edition - and frankly, that's a bad thing. I love it when Dwarves rule.

WFRP can be fairly rules light. There are lots and lots of optional combat rules. I think most D&D players would like these, but you can go with only a few of the combat options and still have a blast. For example: you can go with armor at body locations or an overall armor rating - light, medium, or heavy.

BTW - Pramas and crew have done a really nice job with 2nd ed.