So, what if a player does a 'weak' build?

[Jeff Wilder]

I don't think your build is weak at all ... it's just strong in non-combat situations.

We have a player in our Forgotten Realms game who is a +1 ECL (modified) Avariel favored soul/sorcerer with Celestial bloodline, who wants to go mystic theurge. For those of you not keeping score at home, that means he gets third level spells at -- wait for it -- 12th ECL.

To top it off, he insists on being in the thick of melee, because he doesn't want to "waste" his Power Dive ability.

I honestly believe the group is weaker with that character in it. (The player is an engaging roleplayer, so the players would miss him. But that character ... my God.) My DM just shrugs and lets him do what he wants to do. He's pretty soft-hearted, so he hasn't crushed him like a bug, which he could easily do.

 

[Victim]

I honestly believe the group is weaker with that character in it. (The player is an engaging roleplayer, so the players would miss him. But that character ... my God.) My DM just shrugs and lets him do what he wants to do. He's pretty soft-hearted, so he hasn't crushed him like a bug, which he could easily do.

It's not necessarily a matter of being soft hearted. Some characters are just too easy to kill; there's no sport in it.

 

[Lanefan]

One-word answer:

Leadership.

Get yerself a meat-shield cohort, then stand back and chuck illusions around.

I find illusionist can be perhaps the weakest wizard type depending what school(s) you choose to ban yourself from, mostly due to 3e's nerfing of what illusions can do. Still, if you're doing a good job with an illusionist you should be forcing your DM into at least one on-the-fly ruling a session as to whether your illusions can do something or not.

Lane-"this is not an illusion. No, really."-fan

 

[Jhaelen]

When I am assisting a player creating a new character I am telling her, what other characters already exist and ask her what kind of character she'd like to play. Then I am telling her what classes/prestige classes I know, that might fit that concept.
Basically I show her everything she expresses an interest in and let her decide freely.

I don't intervene if a player wants to play a character I consider inefficient. I also don't care if a certain traditional role (warrior, mage, cleric, expert) isn't covered by any of the players. But I do tell the players before a session that they may want to think about how they'd like to approach certain challenges.
I also like to create NPCs to accompany them for at least part of the adventure. Sometimes they're there to help out, sometimes to take the brunt of an overpowering attack and sometimes to turn against the group at an inopportune moment.

I definitely don't modify encounters if the 'character mix' isn't 'right'. I always try to use all creature types with similar frequency. If the party has difficulties in certain circumstances or if the party isn't survivable as a whole the players will soon realize this themselves (often after one or more of their characters died) and take steps to correct this.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

A weak PC naturally works itself out in my games. If they are incapable of defending themselves and their fellows in combat, or in other situations (certain characters can be just as much a liability in negotiations or espionage as others are in combat), they will pay the price.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The bigger the party, the less of an issue a "suboptimal" build presents for the party, and in fact, may even help the party in other areas.

As a player, I usually play what I want, though I'm sensitive to the needs of the party. If my PC doesn't stack up and dies, so be it.

As a DM, I don't pull any punches for one PC that I wouldn't for another. If you insist on your 10th level PC with 1 level each in only arcane spellcasting classes & PrCls charging into battle and he dies...so be it.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

As long as they contribute in some way, and aren't a dead weight during the vast majority of play, then they're fine.


Reminds me of our Birthright game; one of the characters was a social rogue, who used a lot of wands and staves and such; he also had a pretty high AC, too. When we'd hit the higher levels, we were adventuring in the Shadow World, and ran across a group of golems modeled after this guy.

First round, the priest-paladin got hit by one of the constructs. DM rolls damage, and says "14 points."

The priest's player exclaims: "THAT'S IT? THAT'S ALL THE DAMAGE YOU CAN DO?!?!"

Ah, that was funny. He was, in fact, reasonably useful in a fight, and good when not in a fight, though, strangely, we had very few social interactions in-game.

Brad

 

[Quartz]

As the title says, do you do anything about players doing builds that just aren't very effective?

Do you mean in absolute terms or in relative terms? If all the players have similar characters then you as GM need to adjust your adventures. If most of the players have focussed characters and one doesn't, then you need to look at how the character fits within the group.

 

[Doug McCrae]

As a player, I usually play what I want, though I'm sensitive to the needs of the party. If my PC doesn't stack up and dies, so be it.

As a DM, I don't pull any punches for one PC that I wouldn't for another. If you insist on your 10th level PC with 1 level each in only arcane spellcasting classes & PrCls charging into battle and he dies...so be it.

Except often as not a suboptimal build will cause the deaths of other PCs. Inadequate defence gets you killed. Inadequate offence gets other party members killed.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Except often as not a suboptimal build will cause the deaths of other PCs. Inadequate defence gets you killed. Inadequate offence gets other party members killed.

My experience differs from yours, then. I really haven't seen that yet, from either side of the screen, in any RPG.

The main thing I've seen happen is that other PCs take a proactive stance to whatever gap they percieve in the party. If they lack offensive striking power, they either find ways to boost it or they use better tactics...up to and including running away from fights they know they can't win.