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D&D General Social Pillar Mechanics: Where do you stand?

Vaalingrade

Legend
For big important political social encounters, I find Opposition Research and using Inspiration/Action Points for flashbacks to be super useful.

The smart guy characters can have actually looked into the area and relevant situations and practices. The strong guys can have turned out to have gone out to the pubs with the guy's bodyguards the previous nights and overheard choice bits of his current situations. The sneaky ones can have broken into their office and gotten a look at their papers. Then all of those help change the DC or roll in the present, making it so even if not everyone is speaking in the moment, they all got to contribute.
 

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CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
Yes, yes!

True balance, IMO, is not about seeking parity of the mechanics among the PCs. True balance, IMO, is giving each player an opportunity to say what their character is doing in a scene - in other words, sharing the spotlight so that every player has a chance to have their PC contribute as they want. In combat, this is well established by initiative. In other scenes that lean more towards exploration and/or social interaction, this means the DM seeks input from each player before adjudicating a scene. In all pillars, it means players sharing ideas and having their PCs interact with one another.
definitely, though i'd say just as important as having every player have a chance to contribute is everyone having their own way to meaningfully [edit: mechanically] contribute, in combat your rogue has sneak attack! your wizard has fireball! your druid has wildshape! your paladin has smite! ect..., then you walk up to a social encounter and the bard has charm person, bardic inspiration and persuasion expertise! the warlock has mask of many faces, ...the cleric has guidance spam? the barbarian and the fighter have, uh, base intimidation...in a stat they have little other incentive to invest in...

the designers make sure that every base class has their box checked for their own way to perform to combat, everyone is a fairly equal contributor there, but step outside of the battlefield and things start getting spotty quickly with gaps in their capabilities opening up, sometimes quite large gaps.

edit: and i'll clarify that i mean base class social contribution mechanical option here, sure the battlemaster has that one maneuvre that lets them add a BM die to a social roll or you could pick fey wanderer ranger, but that means if you want to play a socially competent X or a Y you HAVE to play those specific subclasses, you might even have to compromise the path to accurately playing the entire rest of your character concept just so you have a reasonable option to be socially adept
 
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definitely, though i'd say just as important as having every player have a chance to contribute is everyone having their own way to meaningfully contribute, in combat your rogue has sneak attack! your wizard has fireball! your druid has wildshape! your paladin has smite! ect..., then you walk up to a social encounter and the bard has charm person, bardic inspiration and persuasion expertise! the warlock has mask of many faces, the cleric has guidance spam? the barbarian and the fighter have base intimidation...in a stat they have little other incentive to invest in...

the designers make sure that every base class has their box checked for their own way to perform to combat, everyone is a fairly equal contributor there, but step outside of the battlefield and things start getting spotty quickly with gaps in their capabilities opening up, sometimes quite large gaps.
When it comes to social encounters, it depends on the kind of encounter. If a party is trying to find information about a particular person or place, each class will go about it in their own way. A rogue will go to the seedier parts of town or visit the local thieves guild. A wizard might visit a fellow wizard or a library (if the town is big enough to have one). A druid will have a chat with the animals living in the town. A Fighter or a Barbarian could visit a pub, get into a friendly competition with several of the town locals, and then knock back some beers. Each class as a result gets to interact in their own special way. ;)
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think I've been using a loose Skill Challenge approach to social scenes in D&D... since 2e? So, yeah, I agree, this is probably a good framework for them in D&D.



I think we can glean a bit from this example.
You are entirely correct, the rest of the Team didn't shy away from talking. However, whenever they had a particularly important bit, or a difficult con to play, they sent in Face.

The analogy might be that the wizard doesn't bother to hide much from a Mook, but there are points when they do actively step behind the fighter/paladin/barbarian/meatshield. And even then, while the brawn is up front, the wizard and cleric in the back assisting with spell support.

Same thing here - yes, there may be a face character, but our approach to the encounter ought to include effort by others, which is what the system doesn't hand us easily. That's where "Aid Another" or skill challenge formats probably come in.
Precisely.

Especially if we really iterate on and improve the conception and presentation of SCs, which I freely admit weren't well-described in 4e (and the actual adventure examples were often garbage!)

Well-used, a skill challenge is a dynamic, evolving scenario where there is a goal, but no set path to reach it. Each effort, each "move" on the players' part, changes the state of play. Not just for good or for ill, either; it should actually move the conflict to something new or different. I've often used a chase scene as an example (where one person's failed Athletics check puts the next person in a tight spot, or one person's wildly successful Perception check allows the next person to get a juicy opportunity they wouldn't have had otherwise), but we can do social challenges just as easily. For example:

Party is comprised of a high-Cha Paladin (good Diplomacy and Religion, but low Wis, poor Insight), clever and perceptive Wizard (high Wis/Insight/Perception), smooth-talking Rogue (Deception, Streetwise, high Cha), and "high society" socially awkward but good-hearted Barbarian (great bonuses to Intimidate and not much else).

Challenge: Convince the Grand Duchess to aid the war effort against the "Gilded Alliance," which is actually controlled by the Cult of Tiamat. Party rolls initiative--not knowing that the Baron (who is secretly a Tiamat-worshipper) and the Countess (who hates the Cult, but mistakenly believes all of this is rumor-mongering). Order is Rogue, Baron, Paladin, Countess, Barbarian, Wizard.
As a social challenge, Cha and Wis skills are generally favorable, and it's reasonable that some Int skills will probably come up, but the player should justify it. Diplomacy, Deception, and Insight are pretty much shoe-ins. Skills driven by physical ability scores will require a good plan to make any sense at all--not that they can't be used, but certainly their uses are limited.

Rogue had expected (hoped) Paladin could go first, as that would let her dress up his truths with useful lies. However, she instead decides to speak a full truth for once, but instead of speaking to noble concerns, she speaks of the fears of the common person: Streetwise. An unorthodox approach, but one with potential, as the Duchess cares rather a lot about being seen as a worthy successor to her illustrious father. Roll fails...but literally by only 1 point!

The Duchess is now confused; her advisors (paid off by the Baron) have told her that the commonfolk are against any kind of warfare, but such a brazen and easily-defeated lie makes no sense. She's skeptical, and leaning against working with the party. The Baron swiftly responds: "My Lady, I believe this, ahem, adventurer has simply fallen prey to the...wrong sort manipulating her. Adventurers often must work with those in society who struggle or are not content with their lot, as some few always will be even in a just society like ours, and thus hear complaints that are not representative of the people."

Sensing an opportunity, the Paladin jumps onto this with zeal. Diplomacy, and spending a utility power to juice the roll. Flying colors. "Your Grace, I know that you may not necessarily trust the word of one whom you know little of and whose work takes her to dark places, but you know my tale; I have served the Knights of the Platinum Shield my whole life, having been raised as an orphan within its halls. I, personally, vouch for the word of my colleague; the commonfolk are as riled as she says." The Duchess is now truly concerned--she knows the Knights' reputation, and this particular knight's honor is beyond reproach, which implies that her court has been infiltrated. She chooses her next words carefully: "Be that as it may, it is one thing to hold concerns for the future, and quite another to hold the resolve to fight, or even to die, on the potential hope that it might change. What say you, Countess?"

"Your Grace, I have never been friend to war, nor yet do I give quarter to those who would sully our land and hollow out Your rule. But I have seen no evidence that such rapscallions and scoundrels are afoot, and it is the height of foolish aggression to commit soldiers on the basis of nothing more than one man's honor--not that I mean to besmirch you, Ser knight, but even the most honest heart may be deceived, by another or by its own zeal."
Barbarian fumbles. Fancy words aren't her forte. She's barely even keeping up with the conversation, but she knows how important it is. So she speaks plainly: "I am not of your people. But this I know: the dark ones are already here. I have slain some, and given the rest to your...'law men.' I don't remember numbers. But I know Book-Friend does." Aid Another, passes easily. The Countess initially looks skeptical, but softens as the Barbarian spekas. "There is something to be said for honest words spoken without artifice. I know we, as nobles and royalty, do not always see all that is true. Tell me, 'Book-Friend,' what numbers have you to show?"

The Wizard smiles, and pulls out his journal--the one he's take great care to roleplay writing in after every engagement or transaction. "Why, my Lady, it would be my pleasure to document in detail the goings-on I and my companions have faced. You see, in addition to my research, I act as coin-counter and quartermaster for our humble outfit, so it behooves me to keep precise records. Quite useful, I have found, for ensuring proper payment for services rendered. As you can see, we have dealt with not less than three-and-forty cultists just in the capital in the last three weeks alone! And amongst their papers, I found this document indicating locations within your demesne which had not yet had cells placed...you may find that particularly enlightening." History check, +2 from Aid Another, another +2 from the player exploiting past roleplay for excellent effect. And it's a crit, to boot!

Etc. as things go along. I imagine this would be a relatively high complexity challenge, since getting the Duchess on board would be a major victory for the PCs, while failing to convince her (so long as they don't crash and burn!) would merely be a setback, so long as they don't let her get assassinated or usurped before she gets a chance to change her mind.
Each roll or action changes the shape of play. Even the Barbarian's Aid Another roll helps to push things in an academic direction, rather than a purely social one, which is useful to the party. A failed roll, especially a narrow one, can actually promote or focus subsequent success. A successful roll, especially a narrow one, can actually cut off avenues of approach that might have worked before. Doing this sort of thing is key to making a skill challenge actually engaging and fun, rather than a mindless chore of empty non-roleplayed pre-determined rolls. The structure (initiative, a number of successes before a number of failures, limiting usage of powers or resources if such limits make sense, opponents acting to try to push things toward failure or away from success) is what makes the challenge feel like a focused, concentrated effort toward a goal, as opposed to the unstructured process of just requesting rolls ad hoc.
 


CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
When it comes to social encounters, it depends on the kind of encounter. If a party is trying to find information about a particular person or place, each class will go about it in their own way. A rogue will go to the seedier parts of town or visit the local thieves guild. A wizard might visit a fellow wizard or a library (if the town is big enough to have one). A druid will have a chat with the animals living in the town. A Fighter or a Barbarian could visit a pub, get into a friendly competition with several of the town locals, and then knock back some beers. Each class as a result gets to interact in their own special way. ;)
except most of those aren't really exclusive to their class or specific abilities are they? okay sure, speak with animals is a spell limited to druid, ranger and bard, but the rest of those? those are just simple RP and skill checks nothing class inherent to them, nothing stopping the wizard from going to the shady part of town or the fighter the library, and when they get to the conversations there you get to the actual point i was making, what does a fighter, a cleric, a ranger, really have to contribute to the checks other than basic skill rolls? the fighter doesn't have 'famed warrior: your name and deeds has spread far and wide, X/day you can automatically succeed on an investigation, persuasion or intimidation check when talking to someone' or the cleric 'divine purpose: your position as a member of the church grants you some innate creedence and authority, guards and officials are more likely to be convinved to allow you entry to locations without unnessarily obstructing your progress or to believe that you have a reason to be somewhere'
 
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Edgar Ironpelt

Adventurer
I think it's a hard problem, and that any game, and any group of players at a table, are going to have to pick an imperfect compromise.

On the one hand, there's the desire to play a character who can do things that you can't (or at least can't do anywhere nearly as well), including social things. On the other hand, there's the desire to direct the character's choices and actions yourself, and if there's anyone else who makes those choices and decides on those actions, it's the version of the character in your head (as opposed to the one in the GM's head, or on the written character sheet).
 

MGibster

Legend
Same thing here - yes, there may be a face character, but our approach to the encounter ought to include effort by others, which is what the system doesn't hand us easily. That's where "Aid Another" or skill challenge formats probably come in.
I think that's a great way to approach the situation. Especially in D&D with its class system encouraging niche protection. It would also make sense for characters to have better interactions with certain groups based on their background. Even with the A-Team, you're more likely to send B.A. to go talk to those meatheads at the gym lifting weights than you are Face.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think that's a great way to approach the situation. Especially in D&D with its class system encouraging niche protection.

So, major point on the niches - in my experience, the only class that usually fills the social interaction niche all on its own is the bard. Otherwise, folks have sufficient other things to do with their skill proficiencies that one character doesn't take all the skills while also having a high Charisma.

It would also make sense for characters to have better interactions with certain groups based on their background. Even with the A-Team, you're more likely to send B.A. to go talk to those meatheads at the gym lifting weights than you are Face.

I liberally allow positive modifiers or advantage when a character has a relevant class, background, and often other skill (like, if you are talking to a stonemasonry guild, and you know stonemasonry, well, that's an edge.)
 

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