Societies and Alignment Detection

[IanB]

Thing is, Detect Evil doesn't give the information to the onlookers, does it? It gives the information to the caster. So, the results the populace gets depends upon... the caster! Not only do you have to worry about the target, but you have to worry about the guy casting the spell. Now we are talking about multiple failure points.

Doesn't sound foolproof to me.

Neither is our airport screening process, and they implemented that anyway.

Really though, foolproof-ness has only rarely been a concern in justice systems. People are presumably, in this fantasy universe, convicted on false witness all the time; this doesn't change that either way.

 

[Kraydak]

I will note that defeating Det Evil, in a ceremonial type setting (your yearly morals check at the church, say), is quite difficult. A simple requirement that you be "clean" (i.e. don't ping on det magic) is very hard to bypass. If someone does ping as dirty, just wait a while or drop a few dispels. If that doesn't work, higher level divinations will be needed, but it should be rare enough to be affordable.

As an aside, DnD characters, be they PCs or NPCs, WILL get scanned, continuously. Especially government officials and nobility (and their servants, oh my and their servants). The threat of magical disguises/dopplegangers/charms/dominations etc... means that anyone who ISN'T continuously monitoring everyone of significance to the best of their ability is just asking for it. People are more likely to allow you to carry a +5 vorpal blade named "kingslayer" into a throne room than a magic item that detects as powerful illusion or enchantment... (Mind, people are likely to allow you to carry the hypothetical kingslayer into the throne room anyways, as its rather hard to stop someone with a +5 vorpal sword)

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

No one expects the inquisition!

From 1997 until 2001 I ran an AD&D 2nd Ed game in which one of the major political forces was the Inquisition. The pope had granted a charter to the Knights of Mars to root out the forces of Chaos. The various chapters were comprised of Lawful Clerics and Paladins. (Note that Evil nor Good could be detected.) These clerics and paladins would go out into the towns and cities, cast Detect Chaos and arrest anyone who detected as such. Later these prisoners were executed en masse. Any spellcaster who detected as Chaotic would be burned at the stake. The Order of Mars experienced an unprecedented surge of interest from young men who could arrest "criminals" with absolute moral conviction.

Needless to say, the Inquisition made for a great villain as it became more and more Evil.

As the cliche goes, 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolute.'

Oh and one player was a Judge Dredd fan and really played up that angle with his Knight of Mars chaplain (cleric) crying out "I AM THE LAW."

 

[coyote6]

There are other evil-detecting methods that can't be so easily fooled.

Consider hallow -- you can tie an effect to it that will only affect folks of a particular alignment. The spell is unfortunately silent on how hallow determines alignment (do spells like misdirection and undetectable alignment fool hallow? Hallow isn't a divination . . .).

Or a holy weapon or object -- something that inflicts negative levels (which would probably have a detectable effect) on an evil bearer. "Here, please hold the sacred chalice." You'd need to be able to reliably hit a DC 30 Use Magic Device check -- not an easy task.

Or if you're really suspicious about someone, have a paladin slap their hand -- and Smite Evil. Smite Evil can't be fooled. Holy smite has similar effects.

My next new D&D campaign will have no alignment, or radically different alignments (maybe more like allegiances from d20 Modern); I think I'll just give paladins & the like Smite. Then they can use it on the wrong people . . .

---

Now, what would an evil society do with detect alignment magic? Would they scour the land for good people? Would they just kill them, or would they try to force them to participate in vile acts to sully their souls and drag them over the alignment border?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The pope had granted a charter to the Knights of Mars to root out the forces of Chaos.

Or a holy weapon or object -- something that inflicts negative levels (which would probably have a detectable effect) on an evil bearer. "Here, please hold the sacred chalice."

Just be sure you burn the bodies if it kills anyone, or you'll have a wight on your hands by morning.

-Hyp.

 

[delericho]

I will note that defeating Det Evil, in a ceremonial type setting (your yearly morals check at the church, say), is quite difficult. A simple requirement that you be "clean" (i.e. don't ping on det magic) is very hard to bypass.

Nystul's Magical Aura cast on your Amulet of Undetectable Alignment will do it. I would have thought it should be possible to research a similar spell of about 2nd or, at most, 3rd level, that works on a person rather than an object.

As an aside, DnD characters, be they PCs or NPCs, WILL get scanned, continuously. Especially government officials and nobility (and their servants, oh my and their servants).

1) While our benevolent society is busy purging all the Evil members of its populace, all those neighbouring states are busy invading, and wiping them out. Worse, since the nation has just purged all its most effective rat-bastard generals/intelligence operatives/assassins, they're in a lot more trouble than they otherwise would have been.

2) Just how many Paladins does this nation have to go around doing this continuous scanning? And don't they have better things to do with their time?

3) In a feudal society, I doubt the nobles would stand for that sort of thing. As discussed up-thread, they hav no way of seeing the results of the test, and so might well fear that their rivals will have bribed the local 'Paladin' to flag and remove them. And, in a feudal society, the king actually can't force this sort of thing on an unwilling nobility - they'll simply band together and replace him with one of their own number.

Of course, under other forms of government, things work rather differently. However, it generally remains the case that the power of the ruler is not so overwhelming that he can force it on a populace that is unlikely to accept it.

 

[Zeit]

There's an easier way to get an all-good society, but it relies on a couple of very high level clerics.
Just have them travel from city to city, cast a couple of Holy Words and see who squirms. Those that squirm and don't die outright are executed as well. It wouldn't even have to be done openly!

And sooner or later you will have a nation of goodness, no questions asked.

 

[Kestrel]

Also, Misdirection can be cast on someone else to change thier aura to say....an evil one.

So that goody goody paladin causing problems? Cast Misdirection on him and use an evil aura as the replacement aura. Do that before a "Detect Evil" pogrom and he's got troubles.

 

[Tetsubo]

There's an easier way to get an all-good society, but it relies on a couple of very high level clerics.
Just have them travel from city to city, cast a couple of Holy Words and see who squirms. Those that squirm and don't die outright are executed as well. It wouldn't even have to be done openly!

And sooner or later you will have a nation of goodness, no questions asked.

Killing a group of people without cause would in and of itself be an evil act... You would sort of doom yourself to fail...

 

[Tiberius]

Killing a group of people without cause would in and of itself be an evil act... You would sort of doom yourself to fail...

Amusingly, Holy Word has the [Good] descriptor; as such, you would push your alignment toward good every time you cast it.