Solars too weak?

[Brother MacLaren]

The fiends got a HUGE boost in 3.5. Ability scores and Hit Dice increased a lot, especially for the Pit Fiend and Balor. Saves doubled in some cases, and DCs for special abilities increased a lot. I understand that. In 3.0, a spirited charge PA smite with holy sword cast on the lance could take out the balor in one hit, even at 13 Strength.
But celestials received no comparable boost. All of a sudden, *every one* of the Pit Fiend's ability scores are higher than the solar's. The Cha and Wis are particularly galling here. The Balor is better on almost all of them as well, and both beasties have more HP than the solar.
Now, I know the solar has spells and special abilities that rock pretty hard (although they're no longer immune to electricity). But it seems that, given the fiend's ability/HD boost, the angels should have received some equivalent improvement.
Has the BoED changed this at all? Or did that come out before 3.5?

 

[James McMurray]

The reasoning (I believe) was that Solar's were actually too powerful for their stated CR. All of their abilities combine to form an incredibly formidable foe.

Demons and devils on the other hand, were too weak for their CR. They had tons of really cool abilities, but didn't have the resilience to stick around in a fight and use them. A demon that wanted to survive generally did whatever offensive thing he could on the first round, and then teleported away on the second (assuming his meager hit points kept him alive that long).

 

[Joachim Pieper]

And yet the CR for the Solar is higher, no?


Cheers.

 

[James McMurray]

The reasoning (I believe) was that Solar's were actually too powerful for their stated CR. All of their abilities combine to form an incredibly formidable foe.

Demons and devils on the other hand, were too weak for their CR. They had tons of really cool abilities, but didn't have the resilience to stick around in a fight and use them. A demon that wanted to survive generally did whatever offensive thing he could on the first round, and then teleported away on the second (assuming his meager hit points kept him alive that long).

 

[gfunk]

Has the BoED changed this at all? Or did that come out before 3.5?

Yes, as a Clerical-spellcaster, Solars can spontaneously cast Sanctified Spells. These are generally more powerful than standard spells, albeit with steeper costs.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Yes, as a Clerical-spellcaster, Solars can spontaneously cast Sanctified Spells. These are generally more powerful than standard spells, albeit with steeper costs.

Hmm. That's interesting. I'll have to check it out.

I still don't like solars being dumber, denser, and less charismatic than Pit Fiends. Power levels aside, at least they should have higher Wis and Cha.

 

[the Jester]

Believe me, solars are plenty tough. If you're curious as to how a battle between a solar and a balor (well, and lots of other stuff) played out in my campaign, look here.

 

[gfunk]

Comparing the Pit Fiend to the Solar, I would not consider 3 point of Int, 1 point of Wis, and 1 point of Cha to be significantly less.

Anyway, if you simply glance at the staggering array of spell-like abilities and spells a Solar possesses, I think you will see that they can quickly mop the floor with either a Balor or Pit Fiend.

 

[James McMurray]

Anyway, if you simply glance at the staggering array of spell-like abilities and spells a Solar possesses, I think you will see that they can quickly mop the floor with either a Balor or Pit Fiend.

Especially if your campaign allows persistent spell and the solr is walking around all day buffed to the gills.

 

[LGodamus]

i believe this is a first..someone saying solars are too weak