Solid Fog v Fireball

[Empirate]

We are, of course, free to disagree with each other on topics like this. That's kind of why they end up here to be discussed, after all.

I'm curious, though, why you don't think the bead from the Fireball doesn't need a line of effect between caster and target area? As far as I know, the bead flies in a straight line from the caster's hand (i.e. corner of their square, for precise range measurements) to the target. What could break "Line of Effect" that the bead could pass through?

And if you don't mind my asking, why don't you think that Solid Fog is "solid"? It will slow or stop a falling person, and impedes melee attacks (-2 to hit, -2 damage).

Wasn't it you yourself who called it "Summon Jello IV"? The solid fog slows a person, but won't stop it. In fact, there is no evidence in the spell description that the movement of anything is actually stopped in a solid fog. It just slows stuff down, and doesn't interact with magical missiles (rays and other; I'd imagine an Acid Arrow would likewise pass right through).

As for the Fireball line of sight/effect thing: The spell description states you just decide on a distance and height where the fireball will detonate, so I read this as not needing LoS. Line of effect has in fact an error on my part, as I see upon rethinking the whole thing. I would alter my earlier statement and say that the fireball bead does need line of effect (but not LoS); however, Solid Fog doesn't block line of effect for magical stuff.

"Mass" would be a term of convenience, implying that the bead acts like a physical object.

And it does act as a physical object- a very fragile one like a glass bead or a vial of alchemist's fire: by the spell's own description, it detonates in contact with even the slightest contact with the walls of an arrow slit or narrow passage.

(You're right about the light thing, though- my bad.)

The spell's name, "Solid" Fog implies how it works- it is a physical barrier. It slows ANY creature to a movement of 5/round, regardless of its initial speed. That's akin to a terminal velocity fall into a body of water. Hit the surface, and the surface hits back, hard.

(Had I designed the spell, I probably would have added that it did damage based on your movement over a certain amount on entering the fog- the faster the velocity, the more the damage.)

Your comparison of solid fog and water is interesting. In fact, the attack/damage penalties within a solid fog spell are suspiciously similar to those incurred for fighting underwater, as is the falling damage reduction. The movement penalties are even harsher than those for moving underwater.
However, a Solid Fog can be breathed by air-breathing creatures. So it doesn't exist in a different aggregate state from normal air. Therefore, it doesn't act as a physical "barrier", which can only mean a phase interface if we're talking physics.

As far as real-world comparisons are concerned, I'm not convinced by the water comparison and wouldn't call Solid Fog "solid", despite the name (for other unfittingly named spells, consider "Doom", which produces minor penalties instead of doom, or "Darkness", which can be used to make the surroundings brighter). Since the fireball's bead doesn't encounter a phase interface, I'd say it travels on unhindered.
If we're talking pure rules, I'm still unmoved. Since the Solid Fog spell description states that magical missiles like rays aren't stopped, I'd say the fireball bead would behave likewise and still travels on unhindered.

 

[Greenfield]

You keep equating the bead froma Fireball to a "ray and other". I'm not sure how the physical manifestation of a spell equates to a magical ray, but hey, that's why there are DMs.

Danny suggests that hitting the spell at speed should cause some damage. The spell actually does the opposite, cushioning a high speed impact (see the rules for falling through one.)

From that I could see an argument against it detonating the bead. It definitely *is* a magical barrier. We just aren't agreed on whether it's "solid" enough to detonate the bead. Would let the bead detonate if it hit a pillow, or a pile of feathers?

You suggested that it would allow an Acid Arrow through. That's a hard one. It isn't a "ray" type spell, though it is a ranged touch attack. It takes the form of an arrow, which Solid Fog explicitly stops, but it doesn't work according to any of the normal rules for arrows.

If this was a Supers game of some sort we'd be arguing how relevant "Special Effect" is to the way a power functions. Acid Arrow is a ranged acid attack, with the special effect of looking like an arrow. If it actually used an arrow, or left the remains of one behind, the answer would be easy. I thing the RTA tips the balance in favor of being in the "and the like" portion of "Rays, and the like."

Here's a related question: How would you handle a Fireball targeted inside a Web spell? Thread it to target? (i.e roll an attack to slip it through.) Pass through unimpeded? Detonate on impact?

If there's an attack roll to thread it through the web, how would you set the AC to hit? Normally it would be AC 10, adjusted for size and distance. (Which brings up the other question, what is the range increment for a Fireball bead? Can you thread an arrow slit 520 feet away as easily as you can 20 feet away? ) But with a Web there is no clear size for the target space.

As a note to DannyAlcatraz: I thought about equating Solid Fog to a liquid, but came to the same conclusion you did: Hit water at high speed and it hits back. Hit this stuff at high speed and it cuchions the fall. So it isn't a liquid. It also isn't a Web spell.

As a note: No rancor here. This exchange is, and should be, a light discussion of the rules, one of those where I'm not sure there actually is a definitive "right" or "wrong" answer. It's just fun to toss ideas around.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Solid Fog acts like several different states of matter simultaneously, while being clearly none. That's where the "its magic*" comes in- it's selectively obeying, bending and breaking certain rules of physics.

Even though I would rather SF do collision damage like water, I'm perfectly cool with it being a conjured magical pillow...but even as a pillow, I'd say it's physical enough a barrier as to cause premature eruption of a fireball spell.





* Just like the limbs of a clay, stone or metal golem. Golems are not robots with articulated joints, they are statues animated by magic. So, despite being solid, their legs, arms and other moving parts don't break, but function as if the golem actually did have articulated joints.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Here's a related question: How would you handle a Fireball targeted inside a Web spell? Thread it to target? (i.e roll an attack to slip it through.) Pass through unimpeded? Detonate on impact?

If there's an attack roll to thread it through the web, how would you set the AC to hit? Normally it would be AC 10, adjusted for size and distance. (Which brings up the other question, what is the range increment for a Fireball bead? Can you thread an arrow slit 520 feet away as easily as you can 20 feet away? ) But with a Web there is no clear size for the target space.

I would say you could thread it through a web too. AC = Save DC. Or something like that. I'm a big fan of "Yes, but...".

 

[Empirate]

As a note: No rancor here. This exchange is, and should be, a light discussion of the rules, one of those where I'm not sure there actually is a definitive "right" or "wrong" answer. It's just fun to toss ideas around.

Yeah, definitely no rancor! I'm just trying to state in the clearest (and maybe slightly forceful ) terms what I think the rules say in this matter, and I've at least been convinced by your arguments that this isn't cut-and-dried, as I first thought. Keep it going!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

If I was DMing and somebody pointed out this discrepancy, After quick consideration I'd rule that the Fireball would approach the Solid Fog and pass within, where the heat from the Fireball would convert to an equal amount of steam damage, dealing scalding heat equal to the Fireball damage.
I don't think RAI it was intended for these two spells to have difficulty interacting, my understanding of the RAW is Solid Fog should block mundane ranged attacks but not magical ones (Hence the "and the like" statement after mentioning magical rays). I'd hope the conversion of damage energy would appease those who'd want to apply real world physics to the D&D universe.

 

[roundviper]

One other thing to remember is your characters are all doing their actions at the same time. So the fireball could be sent a split second before the fog, that way they would see the targets. The fog would then conceal the fireball coming in.

 

[Greenfield]

D&D doesn't allow that sort of timing overlap. Unless there's a delay inherent in casting time, the first caster in the initiative order will cast their spell and it will take effect before the other caster goes.

There isn't a way, mechanically, to have one of them finish casting the Fireball, but have the second caster do anything before the Fireball goes off. The DM might paint things like that for dramatic storytelling purposes, but it's not something that players can plan for or count on.

 

[Grogg of the North]

There isn't a way, mechanically, to have one of them finish casting the Fireball, but have the second caster do anything before the Fireball goes off. The DM might paint things like that for dramatic storytelling purposes, but it's not something that players can plan for or count on.

I had a DM that resolved all spell effects at the end of the round. It was ... different.

 

[Marshall Gatten]

Regarding the question of if the bead explodes on impact, the real question is whether or not Solid Fog is solid enough for that to happen. I think the most interesting answer would be "maybe". I dropped a wine glass in my kitchen last week. It fell about four feet to a linoleum floor and didn't break. It was kind of amazing. I've broken wine glasses on that floor before. But, apparently, sometimes they don't break. The same kind of thing should go for a delicate thing like a fireball bead hitting a semisolid substance like Solid Fog. The Fireball bead is fragile, like my wineglass, and might explode on impact. But it isn't infinitely fragile, so it might make it through. Decide how hard Solid Fog is as a percentage of rock hard and make that the chance of premature explosion. Personally, I'd guess it's about 10% as hard as rock. So there would be a 10% chance of exploding on impact with the fog.