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Solo playtest...

breschau

First Post
Just as an experiment I had a friend over to play a bit of 4th edition. I run him through a quick encounter and I was very surprised by the results. So surprised, we ran the same encounter again.

He wanted the fighter (best chance of survival, right). I'm something of a harsh DM, so I put him against the Gnoll Claw Fighter (Skirmisher 6; 250 xp). We're both tactically-minded so there are a few comments about why we did things here too. We noticed something about both real quick:

The fighter's build is for group combat (his encounter and one at-will are designed for multiple opponents and essentially useless in single combat); and...

The gnoll is designed for charging and pack combat (mobile melee attack is great for hitting and getting out, add the regular move, and he's great at "pulling" opponents around the map).

We noticed that the gnoll could use mobile attack to strike and move 12 (4 from the ability and 8 from his regular move). The dwarf could only manage 12 with a run and a charge (w/o spending his action point). The gnoll's ability to pull back then charge let him use his double strike, but the dwarf got opportunity attacks every time.

The gnoll charged, dwarf OAs, the gnoll claws twice; the dwarf attacks, the gnoll claws and pulls back then moves; the dwarf runs, charges, the gnoll OAs, the dwarf strikes; the gnoll claws and pulls back then moves; the dwarf runs... Lather rinse repeat. With the high to-hit, multiple attacks, and 70hp, the gnoll made short work of the dwarf (as expected).

But, what was my surprise? That was the second encounter. In the first encounter the dwarf nearly slaughtered the gnoll. There was no string of horrid rolls, every hit did better than average damage (on both sides), and there were only 3 misses throughout. A 1st level character. Nearly took out a 6th level monster. All by his lonesome. How the hell?

Here's how the first run went:

Round One: Dwarf gets initiative and closes the distance. He goes for Brute Strike, and misses (we love that the fighter doesn't lose his daily if it misses). Great start. We're both expecting a quick death for him. The gnoll's up and misses too. We didn't go for the optimized pattern above because we knew exactly where it would lead.

Round Two: Dwarf knows he's in for a tough fight so he goes for Brute Strike again. He hits. 28 damage, knocks the gnoll down to 42, a few from bloodied in the first hit! The gnoll claws for 9.

Round Three: Dwarf uses Tide of Iron for 10 (bloodying it), pushes the gnoll, and shifts. There's a body on the map, so he wants to trip the gnoll up on the corpse. It's a few squares away, so we'll get back to that. The gnoll hits for 8 (bloodying the dwarf).

Round Four: Dwarf goes for Tide again, scores 10 damage, push/shift. The dwarf hits his Second Wind as a minor action. The gnoll hits for 10 more.

Round Five: Dwarf misses with Tide, and uses an action point. Same attack, hits for 14, push/shift. This puts the gnoll on the coprse. I made that combat advantage instead of a trip just because I don't have rules for that under the new system. The gnoll hits for 8.

Round Six: We're both seeing the end and just attack. Dwarf does 7. Gnoll does 8, dropping the dwarf. But... if you kept up on the math, that 6th level gnoll was down to a single hp!

What? How the hell can a 1st level dwarf almost drop a 6th level monster? Sure, I didn't run the gnoll perfectly (using the rinse/repeat strategy above), but that's all it really has.

What does this teach me: that monsters can do one thing real well. But just one. I'm a bit concerned that monsters are going to be one-trick ponies that you have to run exactly as intended or they will suck in encounters.
 

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hong

WotC's bitch
No, what this shows is that if you use bad tactics, then you will likely lose. It's the flipside of emphasising in-game complexity over build complexity. It also shows that the power curve is shallower than in 3E, which is one of their design goals IIRC. The steep power curve is certainly something I've seen various complaints about.
 

Selah

First Post
Isn't the Gnoll Skirmisher only worth 200 XP? In 3e terms, it's not EL 6, it's EL 2, unless my incredibly sketchy understanding of such things is wrong.

And, what's more, I think the Skirmisher builds are Striker type builds - i.e. they may pack some decent damage, but lack hp in and of themselves to pose a lasting threat.
 

SaffroN

First Post
breschau said:
What? How the hell can a 1st level dwarf almost drop a 6th level monster? Sure, I didn't run the gnoll perfectly (using the rinse/repeat strategy above), but that's all it really has.

What does this teach me: that monsters can do one thing real well. But just one. I'm a bit concerned that monsters are going to be one-trick ponies that you have to run exactly as intended or they will suck in encounters.
Yeah i noticed that...

If your gonna send one monster (same xp as the group) that is anything but a Brute, an elite, or a solo against a party, i don't think the out come will be favorable for you. But that is how its supposed to be... the monsters with varying roles are there so that they can work together to bring down a foe, not alone.

With that said...Who would use monster outside of its purpose... that would be like using the back end of a screwdriver to hammer in some nails. Then reaching into your toolbox and getting a hammer and using that to screw in some screws...
 

AllisterH

First Post
For reference:

Gnoll Claw Fighter Level 6 Skirmisher * XP 250
Medium Natural Humanoid
Initiative: +7
Senses: Perception +6; low-light vision
HP 70; Bloodied 35
AC 20; Fortitude 18, Reflex 16, Will 15
Speed 8; see also mobile melee attack
M Claw (standard; at-will)
+11 vs. AC; 1d6 + 4 damage, or 1d6 + 6 while bloodied; see also pack attack below
M Clawing Charge (standard, when this creature charges; at-will)
The gnoll claw fighter makes two claw attacks against a single target when it charges.
M Mobile Melee Attack (standard; at-will)
The gnoll claw fighter can move up to 4 squares and make one melee basic attack at any point during that movement. The gnoll doesn't provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target of its attack.


I think the example fight shows the "labels" actually mean something. Compare how your fight with a skirmisher went with how it would've gone with the same level/xp Gnoll Brute.

Gnoll Marauder Level 6 Brute
Medium natural humanoid XP 250
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +7, low light vision
HP 84; Bloodied 42
AC 18; Fortitude 18, Reflex 15, Will 15
Speed 7
m Spear (standard; at-will) * Weapon
+10 vs AC; 1d8+6 damage or 1d8+8 while bloodied; see also
quick bite and pack attack
M Quick Bite (free; at-will)
After the gnoll marauder makes a successful melee attack
against a bloodied enemy, it takes a bite attack against the same
target: +7 vs AC; 1d6+2 damage or 1d6+4 damage while bloodied.


Even when bloodied, the skirmisher at BEST can only do 12 pts of damage per attack, while the Brute at a minimum when it is bloodied does 12 damage.

In fact, the maximum the brute could do 26 pts of damage which is more than double what the skirmisher can do. Throw in the fact that it has an extra 14 HP and the Gnoll Brute is designed to stand and fight.

I imagine the same thing would've happened if you put a Brute up against the Ranger. The ranger will make the Brute work for it, while the skirmisher will simply stomp on the ranger thanks to its combination of high speed movement.

Similarly, sticking a monster that's ARTILLERY in melee with a fighter and even if a fighter is 5-6 levels lower, the artillery beastie is looking at a beatdown.

I imagine that the ONLY monster that can take on ANY type of PC (striker, controller, defender, leader) would be a Solo. Even an Elite is probably not a one-size fits all monster (I imagine an Elite Brute would have a large problem taking down a pair of rangers at range).

There's also the "save up and unleash" daily nova problem that I was slightly worried about. If a DM telegraphs his fights, the daily will be unleashed only at the BBEG battle (which I'm ambivalent about as whether or not it is a good thing)
 

LowSpine

First Post
You are only basing it on 1 encounter. You have used up your daily power.

You should run a encounter using up your daily and then take 5min break then fight another encounter. Without thatnasty daily it's going to make a big difference.

Also you are using a skirmisher like a defender. Use a defender/brute/soldier instead.

Either that or use a skirmisher like a skirmisher. Give it the ability to do what it should be doing.

The levels are a lower slope so a 2nd level isn't much more than a 1st and so on.

I think tactics is where the win/lose is going to come from.

I might put some of the pregen characters againt each other to see how they fair against each other.
 

Kwalish Kid

Explorer
I'm not exactly sure what the problem is with having most monsters have only one good tactic described in the the actual rules of the monsters. In the past, monsters had no good tactics.

What the monster ends up doing in combat will depend on these tactics (which is part of what will make a fight against a certain monster characteristic) as well as the features of the terrain and the influence of controllers and leaders on the side of the monster.
 


WhatGravitas

Explorer
breschau said:
What? How the hell can a 1st level dwarf almost drop a 6th level monster?
The problem here is: You're thinking in 3E terms, with its CR terms.

In 4E, look at XP-value. Gnoll Skirmisher: 200 XP. XP-value per PC on 1st: 100 XP.

The gnoll is twice as the normal encounter for the dwarf, meaning it's the equivalent of two appropriate foes. And this sounds more reasonable, considering bad tactics on your side, and luck on the dwarf's side - and he used up a lot of resources: His healing surge AND his daily power.

Cheers, LT.
 

fedelas

First Post
katra vs. gnoll marauder

I'll use a 10x10 square room with no particular terrain features katra the dwarf start in the South Est corner the Gnoll in the North West so they are 10 diagonal square away.

First try:
Initiative: Katra 18 Gnoll 10

round1 katra: the fighter moves 5 then charge but miss the attack.
round1 gnoll: shift (just for fun) right to Katra and attack with spear: roll 5 and miss.

rnd2 katra: try Brutal Strike roll 14 and hit AC20 for an awesome 28 damage!!
rnd2 gnoll: only a scratch for the hyena-man who respond with spear attack on AC 26 and 11 damage

rnd3 katra: attack with tide of iron but barely miss, second wind as minor action heal 8hp +2 defenses
rnd3 gnoll: again spear hit for 9 damages

rnd4 Katra: The dwarf fighter hit with tide of iron for 13 push the gnoll and follow (no particular effect in this test map) the foul beast is at 1 to bloodied...
rnd4 gnoll: laugh and miss with his spear

rnd5 katra: miss
rnd5 gnoll: hit for 13 dam. the dwarf is bloodied!

rnd6 katra: end is near for the lady fighter only hope is luck, first attack hit for 14 then katra use action point for added punishment roll 19 (not 20 :( ) and hit again for 12 more.
rnd6 gnoll: hit for enlarged 13 damage ('cause bloodied) no need for the bite, katra collapsed to the ground...

Next time i'll try with two character against the gnoll marauder.
 

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