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Solo, young black dragon, lurker, and level 1 parties.

FireLance

Legend
AC 22 does not mean the PC's need a 16 to hit.

An optimized level 1 fighter has:
20str = 5
Sword = 3
Weapon expertise = 1
Fighter talent = 1
------------------
Total = +10 to hit and he needs a 12.
If he uses Brash Strike he only needs a 10. :)
(He needs another Defender of the party for this to be viable.)
If your challenges require optimized PCs, then you will soon see nothing but optimized PCs.

I personally believe that generic challenges should assume that the PCs have a starting primary stat of 16, starting secondary stats of 14, and no more than half of the "best" feats and powers.
 

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Tai

First Post
AC 22 does not mean the PC's need a 16 to hit.

An optimized level 1 fighter has:
20str = 5
Sword = 3
Weapon expertise = 1
Fighter talent = 1
------------------
Total = +10 to hit and he needs a 12.
If he uses Brash Strike he only needs a 10. :)
(He needs another Defender of the party for this to be viable.)

I didn't say all the PCs would. I said you'd have PCs who need a 16 to hit. I've had characters in my party with an attack stat of 16, using a +2 weapon, without weapon expertise. They need a 17 to hit. Putting them against monsters like this just makes builds that aren't horrifically optimised unusable, and that's not a situation I'd like to have in a game I was playing. I had to fight a black dragon with a three person level 16 party, and while I was playing a daggermaster and was hitting on 9s with CA, the warlock needed 17s, and basically wasn't able to contribute. The fight took two hours, and was probably the most boring 4E fight I've been in.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
AC 22 does not mean the PC's need a 16 to hit.
Exactly. Even the unoptimized fighter in our first 4e party would have hit AC22 on a 13+. Gaining CA adds a +2, using aid another adds +2, having leaders around will give additional bonuses.

So, the high defenses are not really the problem. I agree with ZzarkLinux, though. It would make for an extended and potentially quite boring fight.

What I'd do: lower the solo's level by two and add something else to the encounter.
 

renau1g

First Post
I must echo what others have mentioned about wyrmlings. They're fun, have all the cool stuff of dragons without dragging on forever. You can even add a few kobolds (or lowered dragonborns) and apply the dragonguard template from Draconomicon to one of them as a special bodyguard.
 

Atlemar

Explorer
I ran my party of six first-level characters against a young black dragon in their first adventure. I statted up a version that took his level down by 1 to use in case the party didn't take a short rest between fighting his guards and him, but ended up using the full version. I also had him fight in a swamp, so the PCs had plenty of room to maneuver, and I didn't have them surprised (so they could talk to the dragon first). I also seeded magic items on the way, so most characters had a +1 to their attacks by the time they got there.

It was scary, but they took the dragon down -- just how I wanted it to be.
 

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