Some Changes to Base Attack Bonus

[Enoch]

I haven't been to this forum in forever so forgive me if someone has already started a large thread about this subject.

In my upcoming Fallen D&D game I plan on making BAB a skill. The character has a certain fighting style, and puts points into that. I am also using Ken Hood's d20 Martial Arts system. So I will also count the BAB skill as Technique.

This is how I think I will break down the class/cross-class of the skill.

Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger: class skill
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue: class skill, but maximum is the same as a cross-class
Sorcerer, Wizard: cross-class

I am also using Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty rules, so I think I will make defense a skill as well. I haven't put much thought into this yet.

So what things will I need to change? I think some classes will require more skill points so that they can retain their fighting prowess.

Some things that I will need to take into account is the higher starting attack bonus. This is actually not quite that big of a deal because the last time I used the d20 Martial Arts rules most fighter types had really high defense to the point where almost nothing could hit them.

Any thoughts?

-Joshua
omnia vincit amor

 

[Crothian]

so a first level fighter can start with BAB of 4 and a wizard can start with BAB 2?? People will be hitting more oftern

 

[S'mon]

I do think BAB should be a skill, certainly for modern and sf settings - Traveller d20 definitely missed a trick on that, the idea of Academics (like me!) getting BAB bonuses as they level up always seemed a bit silly. I'd suggest it should be one skill per weapon though, or at least per group of similar weapons. A good approach is that skill in one particular weapon gives skill at half that number in all related weapons, so 4 ranks in greatsword gives 2 ranks in longsword. Proficiency in a weapon would make it a class skill and avoid a -4 penalty for untrained use. Skill points by class would need tweaking, Fighters would need a lot more points, while Clerics & Wizards would need few more.

 

[bluto68]

So, a First level fighter with a twohanded sword, maxxed out skill (bonus of +8) and an 18 strength will be able to hit for 2d6+6 (str)+16(power attack @8x2).

So hitting for 29 points will be normal at first level...

Using BAB as a Skill makes Power Attack rediculous.

 

[Cyberzombie]

I'm working on a similar thing myself (currently in a lull whilst I run an Epic campaign). To do it right, so that you don't have things blow up in your face, you need to pretty much rework the combat system from the ground up. It's not impossible, but it is a lot of work.

One thing to stay away from: don't have a "swords" skill. Have a fencing skill, that gives access to all weapons that are used in fencing, as well as the buckler. Have the man-at-arms skill, that gives access to the D&D martial weapons, as well as light and medium armor and all but the tower shields. Have a centurion skill (as in Roman centurions) that is similar to the man-at-arms, but with only light armor, but also with tower shields. Then there's the knight skill...

A weapon like the longsword, thus, will be usable by many of the skills -- which matches reality, more or less. That size sword was used by pretty much everyone that could make swords.

Oh, you'll definitely have to change AC. It just doesn't work with a skill-based combat. I know. I tried to make it work, but it doesn't.

 

[Mordane76]

This is how I think I will break down the class/cross-class of the skill.

Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger: class skill
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue: class skill, but maximum is the same as a cross-class
Sorcerer, Wizard: cross-class

I am also using Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty rules, so I think I will make defense a skill as well. I haven't put much thought into this yet.

So what things will I need to change? I think some classes will require more skill points so that they can retain their fighting prowess.

SOME classes? All classes would require more skill points -- Fighters especially would have to have more skill points, else they would never be able to fight and defend themselves, not to mention do things like ride a horse or climb a rope. The rogue might be the only class that wouldn't require some boost in skill points, but if you boost everyone else, you have to boost him as well to maintain some semblance of equality. In the end, without overhauling the entirety of the skills system, I think this might simply be more work than whatever preceived reward you're expecting.

With the difficulties of uneven advancement and variability you'll throw in by making BAB and Defense both skills, you'll have a much more difficult time judging just what constitutes a challenge to these characters. Also, if it works for the PCs, it works for the villains and the monsters, which means you'll have to revamp their attacks and defense. If you're using PrCs, then many PrCs just became that much easier to get into early (since many have BAB requirements, especially fighter-based PrCs) -- many of these classes would become available around 2-3rd level using BAB as a skill.

I've used the GnG system before -- it's not bad, and has many redeeming qualities. I've perused some of Ken Hood's other house rules as well, and I've seen some innovative and exciting stuff, but I think this might just be too much. In the end, I think the present system laid down for attacks is probably much easier and usable.


A fighter needs at least 1 extra skill point per level to maintain their original BAB advancement. However, a fighter with the option of boosting their BAB like a skill will sacrifice their other skills for it. Using a defense mechanic like Ken's from GnG gives a fighter a Good Defense, which is basically like having a good save versus being hit. Thus, they need at least 1 more skill points every other level to maintain the original progression they would have enjoyed just using the system laid out by Ken.

 

[Enoch]

Ok, about the Power Attack thing. When I keep saying BAB as a skill, I only use the term base attack as a way to keep things simple. For all rules purposes your actual BAB would be the rank of the skill not the entire bonus. While the damage would still be quite high at first level, it wouldn't be quite as bad as you said. Not to mention in Grim-n-Gritty most people start with a lot more hitpoints than the average first level character and armor blocks damage. Something else I should add to this is that no one in my group uses power attack.

The skill would actually be a style and not just an all around attack bonus. So one guy might be trained as a knight so he would have Knight-Training or some such as his skill and would get a bonus to sword, lance, etc. Other weapons would not get this bonus.

then many PrCs just became that much easier to get into early

*shrug* I don't mind people getting prestige classes earlier. It isn't like I just give it to them anyway.

People will be hitting more oftern

Iffy about this. The d20 martial arts rules that Ken Hood wrote can make defense sky rocket by picking particular manuevers. Plus there are parry and block manuevers. So I'm not all that worried about it.

All classes would require more skill points

Yes everyone will need more skill points. Probably 2 more per level. I'm not too worried about it though, I have quite a large skill list compared to the normal D&D one and I think I already start most classes with more skill points anyway (I need to check my notes to be sure).

Something else I forgot about is that feat that gives a bonus to a skill. That could be bad, but then again weapon focus does that anyway (well only a +1 bonus).

Anyway, just so nobody gets in a big huff. I'm not saying this is how it should be for everyone. I'm just experimenting with it. I'm pretty sure it will work well with my group, but I assume it won't with most.