some PoL questions

[eleran]

What are the thoughts of some of you on these aspects of PoL?

1) The PCs are supposed to be the "ubermensch" that rise up to save the day of the village/town/city/area they are in. But what of those they may have learned from? Would you not expect a wizard to have learned his magic from someone else, either in town or somewhere else? The fighter has to have undergone extensive training to get to his skill level with a weapon.

And, once you open the door to these folks existing, what of others that may have trained them, etc.?

I am just trying to get a feel for what this kind of setting would feel like.

I suppose a lot depends on whether your going for a high fantasy or low or mid-fantasy setting. But I guess i dont really see how PoL lends itself to high fantasy anyway.

The gist of this is that I am working on a campaign to start when 4e is released and I have had time to digest it. And I want to have some these issues ironed out as I am doing some of the setup of the starting town.

 

[Voss]

It lends itself pretty well to high fantasy, even if there aren't hordes of FR style-not-quite-demigods running round. Nor does it need Eberron's magic item factories.

High fantasy really only needs the protagonists and antagonists running around in over-the-top land. In fact, having the peasants wallowing in utter squalor can serve to magnify it.

There are several ways to substitute for training, and not open that can of worms-
1- the heroes are literally demigods. Zeus hasn't been using protection, again.
2- chosen by fate/destiny/Higher Magic.
3- reincarnation of the ancient heroes. Eternal Champions of a sorts.
4- the last great heroes pick (and train) the next great heroes.

 

[Cryptos]

I think it's possible to have the learned mentors without leaving one to wonder why these more powerful people just don't go out and solve all these problems.

In the world I've been thinking about building for some time, one of the human city-state lords in history sent his sons to an outlying garrison town amid threats of assassination and an overthrow plot by the nobles, there ostensibly to train to lead the militia and the city watch until one of them would inherit the throne. He hired the best sages and martial trainers he could find across the land to do so.

Except that this maneuver to keep his sons out of the fray became more troublesome than his existing problems. Soon the major political issue was about how the lord was turning his sons into warlords and keeping others from the benefits of training with these fine scholars and warriors, that he was trying to take more power from the nobility. So he opened up the garrison town as a sort of academy of warfare and martial prowess. Soon, the arcane scholars started setting up shop there, and then the churches starting placing seminaries there, and entrepreneurs started setting up mercenary and scout-for-hire type companies there.

Essentially, they're all "in business" to train what we would consider the adventuring classes. The warrior's academy still has strong ties to a government and so has to pay lip service to it. They won't intervene unless it serves this one city-state directly. All of these mentor-type characters may be smart and powerful, but they're a bit too busy to be running around stomping on every goblin that pops up. They're tied to a location and a position of importance.

Anyway, all of my plans seem to fit pretty well with the default stuff for 4e, so now instead of just writing a setting in general, I'm writing it as I learn more about 4e.

In much the same way, I'm sure there are many brilliant people who could solve our world's problems - given a chance. But they have problems of their own, and have to have jobs like everyone else, and are limited in what they can do by the powers that be. I'm sure someone out there has a more efficient alternative fuel engine out there than what's on the market but it's not in the interests of big business.

If even .5% of the population are geniuses of a certain caliber, that's still something on the order of 325 million of them... so where are they? Can you name them? They have problems, just like everyone else. Or they never got encouragement or opportunity. Or they're ambivalent to the world's problems. Or greedy and evil. They're starving in Bangladesh or working in McDonald's, hoping that one day they'll be able get out of their situation and be able to use their full potential.

The remarkable thing about an Einstein isn't that he was a genius, but rather that he was successful at all (in that he is well known and respected.) Nikolai Tesla died penniless. Really, if it hadn't been for the interest in atomic weapons, people like he and Oppenheimer would probably be a nobody to most people. About as famous as Schroedinger or Heisenberg.

Having dealt with people in positions of power, most of your truly influential people are, sadly, stupid and inept.

An intelligent person would never feel comfortable with the kind of short-term gain mentality that the wealthy, business and government favors, and so they aren't elevated. It's the greedy, stupid person who would dump chemicals into the water supply to save the company money that gets promoted. And then even if there's a problem, gets fired with a severance package of several hundred million and moves on to the next company. Ten years later he'll die of cancer from chemicals in the environment, and curse the gods for his cruel fate without ever realizing he did it to himself - and everyone else - but he'll be quite successful until then.

The decent and gifted are mired down by problems or responsibilities. The not-so-decent (evil, greedy, uncaring, etc) and the not-so-gifted seem to do pretty well in society.

Fantasy worlds don't have to be any different. In medieval fantasy, it might even be worse for the exceptional. Imagine the treatment you'd probably get for suggesting that disease was caused by small microscopic organisms if you went backs to the days of the Black Plague.

So truly powerful people doesn't necessarily mean there's nothing for player characters to do.

I'm rambling by now but hopefully this will give you some food for thought.

 

[Lackhand]

This is really just an adventure hook waiting to happen

My master is dead -- and it is my fault that he died. (Insert horde of ninjas or summoned shade or spiteful rival here).

I was the most brilliant pupil my master had ever known, and I equaled her skill within the first year of training -- and exceeded it, within the second.

My master is my foe. I once loved him, but discovered his evil plot/callous nature/foul philosophy/bad breath and vowed our relationship over. He disagreed, and hunts me still.

My master is not what you might call "normal". She was a voice in the fire, a haunting spirit, a glade-imprisoned fey, a wind in the door. She is with me still, to lend aid and advice, but she cannot interfere directly.

My master is legion. It takes a village to raise a child, and each of my tutors taught me something invaluable that I turn to my specific (and far more warlike than the original use!) art.

Yay character hooks!

 

[small pumpkin man]

Firstly, perhaps you should be more specific when you say "high fantasy" and "mid fantasy" I have a vague idea what your talking about, but only from D&D boards, I don't think normal fantasy fans I know would understand what your talking about in this context.

I'm assuming you mean the civilization level, correct? The amount of large cities, trade and universities (and as a byproduct, magic items) that are around?

D&D is moving closer to Conan, in Conan, certain people are powerful just because they're innately awesome, it's the same in Darksun, simply by surviving (and excelling at) your harsh childhood, you're a powerful character, ready to kick that Kobold's butt.

Note that since Wizards are moving away from book learning, it's quite possible you're just the local elder's apprentice, or in the case of the Warlord, the Chieftain's son, trained by all the local warriors. Or something, maybe you're just a blacksmith/herbalist who's rising to the challenge of attacking Kobold's, and finds your inner Hero?

These all work for a tiny village, let alone a small city, it's not something I see being a problem.

(I like some of Lackhand's ones too)

 

[~Johnny~]

Wow, a numbered list with one item.

I don't see this as an issue at all. I just started a campaign with 1st level characters in a city where the highest-level character (that they could have possibly trained with) is 3rd or 4th. A 1st level character is better off than the average joe, but that represents potential, not training.

Adventuring is how the characters learn so quickly. Wizards are uncovering magic secrets, fighters are being pushed to their limits, and clerics are receiving the favor of their gods. If the PCs were in a movie, their dungeon crawling exploits would be the "training montage" scene.

I think Keith Baker did a great job of explaining this kind of dynamic in some of his early posts about the hero-centric vibe of the Eberron campaign setting. He referred to PCs as "extraordinary individuals with the ability to make a difference in the world."

 

[TwinBahamut]

1) The PCs are supposed to be the "ubermensch" that rise up to save the day of the village/town/city/area they are in. But what of those they may have learned from? Would you not expect a wizard to have learned his magic from someone else, either in town or somewhere else? The fighter has to have undergone extensive training to get to his skill level with a weapon.

And, once you open the door to these folks existing, what of others that may have trained them, etc.?

Well, here are some fairly PoLish examples that I can think of...

For Wizards:

The PC was taught by some old hedgewizard who lived at the edge of civilization (AKA the hut at the edge of town). The wizard was not very powerful himself, and was only able to teach the young PC a few minor tricks. However, he discovered that the PC was a prodigy of incredible talent, who quickly learned everything the hedgewizard knew. Unsatisfied with the limited knowledge he can gain from the hedgewizard, the PC sets out to learn more for himself from traveling the world.

The PC's mentor was a powerful wizard, an archmage from long ago. However, the archmage detests the concerns of normal affairs, only interested in exotic magical research and the development of his craft.

The PC met a weird fairy in the woods, who offered to teach the young child the art of magic on a whim.

The PC teaches himself magic from studying a magic grimoire that was locked in a chest hidden at the bottom of the town well.

For Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, Warlords, etc:

Raw natural talent and self-training born from the necessities of a harsh world. Maybe had a little coaching from an average soldier of thief at some time.

For Clerics:

Devout study of ancient holy texts, and the guidance of an aging clergyman who offers guidance. Further inspiration comes from old stories and the guidance of a divine hand.

For Paladins:

All Paladins ever needed was the divine call to arms.

For Warlocks:

From mysterious entities who offer magical pacts, of course.