Some rules questions...

[KenHood]

I ask here, because frankly, searching the threads at WOTC's forum makes my brain bleed.

First...
Where the heck are the rules for caltrops? And what are they?

Second...
Does the ruthless ruffian "add Str to damage" ability apply to all maces and clubs?

Third...
Garrottes. You know, choking somebody with a cord. Where are the rules for that in 4E?

Fourth...
Let's say Tonk wants to carry a cord or manacle that he can use to bind himself to an opponent, preventing them from separating. Do the rules cover anything like that?

 

[Ozymandias79]

You know you could have just mailed me the questions

1. caltrops are pointy things you put on the ground when you don't someone to pass there. for further info look here. and currently there are no general rules for them.

2. I interpreter it as it are only those weapons unless you have the street thug feat(so you can use the mace as light blade) and proficiency for it THEN I would say yes.

3.rules for Garrotes are in Dragon 373

4. sorry couldn't find any rules for that

Ozzy

 

[KenHood]

Thanks.

I worded the first question incorrectly. I know what caltrops are, I just wondered about the rules.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

1. Caltrops ... uh ... not sure. I don't see them in the PHB or in AV, so perhaps they don't exist in 4e yet. If I were to make something up on the spot, I'd probably say that the square either does a small amount of damage, or is difficult terrain (going slow to avoid stepping on them).

2. I'm thinking that since it specifies maces and clubs, that it would be only those two specific weapons, as opposed to all weapons with the mace keyword. My reasoning is the the club's weapon type is "mace", so if they wanted it to apply to all weapons in the mace group and clubs, they really didn't need to mention clubs. No two-handed morningstar for you!

3. I don't believe there are rules for that in 4e yet. Your DM would probably have to come up with something. If I were the DM coming up with it, I think I'd make it a two-stage attack: vs. Ref first which would make the target grabbed on a hit, with a secondary vs. Fort attack to do damage. Have to be careful to not make it out-do the normal at-wills, though. Of course, if it were for something like an assassination and you were doing it on your target and the target wasn't a combat capable individual, I'd probably make it a skill check or two instead, and then just say "you kill him" if you succeed.
[EDIT] Apparently there's rules in Dragon 373. Now I'm interested to know how close I was ...[/EDIT]

4. Not sure if the rules say anything about that either. Again, if I were the DM I'd make it take an action to attach yourself to the victim, and then he's stuck. Depending on the type of restraint, something like an Acrobatics check or three might get him out if he's lucky.

Maybe some of our more rules-savvy members know of specific rules that apply, but to be honest I doubt they exist in 4e, at least not yet. Especially #3 and #4 are ones that I think are intended to be left up to DM improv.

 

[elecgraystone]

#1 As far as I know, nowhere. I haven't seen any. I guess you could make them up using the trap rules.

#2 Any club or mace as long as the attack has the rattling keyword.

#3 Dragon 373

#4 Well... You could knock them out THEN spend an action to tie them to you. Not sure what good that'd do. As far as doing it in combat? Not that I know.

 

[KenHood]

No two-handed morningstar for you!

Yeah... that was where I was going.

I figured the definite article prevented a broader interpretation.

---

As for garrotes in Dragon 373: *****!

First, I don't have a copy of that. Second, I've got to wait for approval.

 

[KenHood]

#4 Well... You could knock them out THEN spend an action to tie them to you. Not sure what good that'd do. As far as doing it in combat? Not that I know.

Nah. That's not what I'm thinking. It's like the old cowboy movies where the Apaches force the cowboys to fight with knives, while tied together at the wrist.

I could show you how to do it in real life. It just takes a cord with a slip knot, and you can tie those with one hand. However, there is a LOT of stuff that you can do easily in real life during a fight that is difficult or impossible in 4E rules. I get that, because it's an aspect of keeping the game simple and putting everyone on an even playing field. I was just wondering if someone had an idea how to implement it in the game.

I figured it would be a grab (standard action) using a rope. Once the action is complete, the character doesn't have to maintain the grab because the rope does the work.

Regarding caltrops...
3.5E used these rules:

Caltrops: A caltrop is a four-pronged iron spike crafted so that one prong faces up no matter how the caltrop comes to rest. You scatter caltrops on the ground in the hope that your enemies step on them or are at least forced to slow down to avoid them. One 2- pound bag of caltrops covers an area 5 feet square.
Each time a creature moves into an area covered by caltrops (or spends a round fighting while standing in such an area), it might step on one. The caltrops make an attack roll (base attack bonus +0) against the creature. For this attack, the creature’s shield, armor, and deflection bonuses do not count. If the creature is wearing shoes or other footwear, it gets a +2 armor bonus to AC. If the caltrops succeed on the attack, the creature has stepped on one. The caltrop deals 1 point of damage, and the creature’s speed is reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded. This movement penalty lasts for 24 hours, or until the creature is successfully treated with a DC 15 Heal check, or until it receives at least 1 point of magical curing. A charging or running creature must immediately stop if it steps on a caltrop. Any creature moving at half speed or slower can pick its way through a bed of caltrops with no trouble.

What if we adapted this for 4E...

• A bag of caltrops (2 lbs.) covers one square (or maybe burst 1).
• A square covered by caltrops is difficult terrain.
• Creatures entering the square take an attack +6 v. AC or +4 v. Reflex. If the attack hits, the creature suffers 1 damage and is slowed (save ends).

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Nah. That's not what I'm thinking. It's like the old cowboy movies where the Apaches force the cowboys to fight with knives, while tied together at the wrist.

I could show you how to do it in real life. It just takes a cord with a slip knot, and you can tie those with one hand. However, there is a LOT of stuff that you can do easily in real life during a fight that is difficult or impossible in 4E rules. I get that, because it's an aspect of keeping the game simple and putting everyone on an even playing field. I was just wondering if someone had an idea how to implement it in the game.

I figured it would be a grab (standard action) using a rope. Once the action is complete, the character doesn't have to maintain the grab because the rope does the work.

Hmm ... perhaps make it take a minor action after the normal grab to 'attach' yourself with the rope? I think there should still be a possibility for escape, though ... perhaps add +4 to your defenses for the purposes of the grabbee trying to escape? I think something like this would have to be cleared by your DM in any case, because it's essentially houseruling.

Regarding caltrops...
3.5E used these rules:

What if we adapted this for 4E...

• A bag of caltrops (2 lbs.) covers one square (or maybe burst 1).
• A square covered by caltrops is difficult terrain.
• Creatures entering the square take an attack +6 v. AC or +4 v. Reflex. If the attack hits, the creature suffers 1 damage and is slowed (save ends).

I have to say, I really like this implementation. Useful, but not overpowered. I think Reflex would be a better target, because as 3.5 notes, most armor doesn't really help the bottoms of your feet much.

 

[ryryguy]

I figured it would be a grab (standard action) using a rope. Once the action is complete, the character doesn't have to maintain the grab because the rope does the work.

The way I might run it: Definitely a Grab action... possibly a slight (-2) penalty on the attack roll to start the Grab. Then, you don't have to maintain the grab, which is fairly strong, since it means the grab continues even if you are stunned, dazed, etc. However, you are also grabbed, yourself! You're immobilized and cannot end the grab as a free action like you normally can. Both you and the target can escape the grab normally with the escape action.

(Edit)It might also make sense to say you need to have combat advantage, or already be grabbing the target, to try this trick. (If you did that, definitely no penalty on the attack roll.)

Regarding caltrops...
3.5E used these rules:

What if we adapted this for 4E...

• A bag of caltrops (2 lbs.) covers one square (or maybe burst 1).
• A square covered by caltrops is difficult terrain.
• Creatures entering the square take an attack +6 v. AC or +4 v. Reflex. If the attack hits, the creature suffers 1 damage and is slowed (save ends).

Item-based stuff like this is pretty much gone from 4e, for better or for worse. No flasks of alchemist fire and so forth. (I've never really checked out the Alchemy rules that have appeared in Dragon(?), maybe those might be of interest?)

But if you do allow these caltrops, I think you need to specify how they are delivered. Almost certainly a standard action. Can you throw them to a square at some range? If so, you may need a to-hit roll of some kind. If you miss that roll, I guess you could revive the whole grenade-like missiles thing and have them go to a random square, but simpler would just be that the caltrops are ineffective - the bag doesn't open or whatever. (Emptying the bag in an adjacent square might just be automatic.)

Also, I'd suggest either difficult terrain or the 1 damage and slowed bit, not both. 1 damage is actually significant against minions... Maybe a creature can use a standard action to disarm/remove the caltrops from an adjacent square?

 

[Ecce]

Hmm ... perhaps make it take a minor action after the normal grab to 'attach' yourself with the rope? I think there should still be a possibility for escape, though ... perhaps add +4 to your defenses for the purposes of the grabbee trying to escape? I think something like this would have to be cleared by your DM in any case, because it's essentially houseruling.

Penalty to succeed at attaching followed by some sort of penalty for being attached seems fair. Unable to shift, provides combat advantage, etc. Also, ending a manacle-grab could be a standard rather than free action.

In return for that trade one can clobber their target for however long they feel like holding on, heavy penalty or no chance to escape. Seems fair.