Some Thoughts on Logic

[George Washington's Ghost]

"Logic", in my humble opinion, is a moot point in ISRP anyway. Is magic logical? Is a two-ton creature that can fly and breath fire without its bone-structure collapsing or its internal organs being destroyed logical? Is a Drow Vampire Half-Dragon Paladin follower of Torm logical? Is this arguement logical?

No, but out of character logic should still apply, meaning that thinking about your character's surroundings (and other characters in them) should still be valid. If I see an unusual character like that in, I think first about what I would do if it was real life- something like that would at least warrant a head turn or a raised brow. I agree that it's not always to be expected, but Tharivious brings up a good point, and that's the fact that too often characters get ignored completely in a room full of people. While it is the player's choice whether or not they respond, responding only to characters that suit them and excluding unusual ones is poor way to roleplay. Roleplaying isn't just about sitting in your circle of people and choosing to acknowledge who you want to, it's about bringing others into it and interacting with your surroundings.

 

[Tharivious_Meliamne]

Well that has to do social standards, intraversion, extraversion and the dynamics of the group. All of which are human characteristics and have nothing to do with logic.

It was also an example of a reason to consider the logic presented as a viable alternative.

And as I've pointed out, it has been a long time since CRT constituited "an area filled with humanoids.". I've coming here for six years or so and even then there were werebeasts, dragons and celestials hanging out in the tavern.

As I have also seen in the past year that I've been around the site. Yet the majority of characters are still humanoid, which qualifies it as an area filled with humanoids.

Well this is the long standing deal that runs with all characters in the ISRP area whether they be mundane human fighters or celestial archmagi: Provided it doesn't violate the CoC you can have whatever type of character you want and I will acknowledge/interact with them how I want. I won't expect you to create a specific type of character and you won't expect me to go out of my way to make your character feel special.

It swings both ways, if there's someone who doesn't want to RP with my reality-heavy characters because it's too much reality for them then that's fine too. Likewise they're also free to not RP with Thala 'cause they don't want to have such a thing become commonplace to their character.

Fair enough. I agree completely that everyone has the right to play whatever they wish to play. That's one of the great aspects of this site. You have the option of playing and creating characters that you might not have the opportunity to work with otherwise.

It does swing both ways, not every character is going to be meant to interact with every other character, just as not every person is meant to interact with every other person. I myself play both reality heavy and higher-fantasy type characters, it just depends on what the player is in the mood for with each character. However, just because a character is semi-unique does not mean that they should be automatically written off from a roleplaying standpoint, but as you've stated several times already, this is not logic, this is interaction.

Well, like I said, that's an entirely different issue not relating to logic in the slightest.

And like I said, it was more of an example to give something to consider in regards to my opinion of logic. It may not relate directly to logic, but it relates to the reasoning behind my suggestion, and is therefore relevant to what was said.

In my experience that's really pot luck. It's not like we're going to set up a roster of room greeters and it really depends on what the crowd is like and who's there. Depending on what bars/clubs/establishments I go in and how I go in I personally can get either looked at by a small crowd of people or ignored completely.

With most of my characters there's days they won't get a second glance from the patrons and others when they need to beat people off with a stick. It's just dependent on the crowd on and the situation.

As a matter of fact, setting up a 'roster of room greeters' has been suggested on a few other threads, so I wouldn't discount that possibility just yet. And as you said, being noticed does indeed depend in part on how one enters. A subtle entrance can avoid detection and a grand one can make eyebrows raise; it's in the approach of it.

Well that's not going to be helped by all glancing business. I'm not going to glance at someone I don't particularly intend to RP with and I'm not going to judge whether I particularly want to RP with them based off a one line emote of them entering and their description. If I did I'd either ignore everyone or get swamped with more people than I could keep track of.

Being a newbie is hard, we certainly want to discourage actively hostile behaviour towards them, however we also have to acknowledge that newbies need to find their own niche. A newbie who brings in Slaadi bard and plays a very high fantast/low reality campaign probably better off not being glanced at by a human fighter from a low fantasy/high reality campaign since he'd probably wonder why they couldn't agree on anything (and potentially blame himself).

And again, fair enough. Everyone has a right to decide who they interact with, but again, that does not mean that suggestions of acknowledging people more often can't be worth considering.

And as I stated above, you're right, not all characters are meant to interact, just like not all people are. It is the player's choice, and in the long run, that's how it should be. However, yet again I say that giving others a glance can make the player realize that they aren't invisible and mute.

Newbies, like everyone else, need to find their own group or be found by it thorugh their roleplaying. Walking through the door doesn't tell us anything about you and so doesn't really warrant any special notice from anyone.

Very true, but sometimes proverbial diamonds in the rough can be found by giving someone a chance. While simply walking through the door might not warrant a glance, maybe the way that they walked in does.

 

[Nugan]

Roleplaying isn't just about sitting in your circle of people and choosing to acknowledge who you want to, it's about bringing others into it and interacting with your surroundings.

As those who have read some of my other posts know, I completely agree with this, but I don't try to justify on logical grounds. I justify it simply through the fact that being inclusive is the best thing for the Wizards community. Ignoring and blocking other people out only builds out-of-character resentment.

Logic isn't the grounds I'd use to prove it though, because, to be perfectly honest, logic just doesn't seem like a concideration when you take in everything that goes on in ISRP.

That does mean I don't try to make my characters as believable as possible, but when the guy on one side of me has is a seven hundred year-old human fighter/cleric/archmage who once dated the elven goddess of magic, and the guy on the other side is a vampire who used to be a lord in Baatar who used to be a celestial prince before that, I kinda think its hard to take any discussion of "logic" seriously.

That said, I'm not trying to argue this point, so much as I'm trying to argue that we shouldn't be arguing over it. (Ironic as that sounds)

 

[Ethera de Lioncourt]

It's a game.

We come here to spend free time doing something we enjoy, interacting with other people, creating storylines, and using our imaginations.

I judge those I talk to on their ability to rp, hold conversation, and have a fairly good idea of what it is their doing and how their said character should act (ie- Vampire not eating food, Minotaur knowing he can't go under tables and sit on someones lap)
I will talk to those outlandish characters others will not. Because maybe I have a big heart and knowing someone else wants to spend moments out of their life sitting with my character and their character in a pretend land with pretend folks, well to sum it up means alot to me. IC and OOC.

I play things some have called stupid, boring, idiotic, and impossible. But those who judge some of my more "odd" characters honestly don't know the first thing about them and hear snipets while they talk to someone else. Take for example Miss Ethera, three different things she is, three things some people who have far too much time on their hands analyzing someone elses character said were impossible to make. But given the 16pg story (just her first 10yrs) on word I have done I would say I have more then enough reason for what she is, how and why. But no one ever asks. Let them think what they want, it's better that way. It sorts those who are kind and open from those who are unkind and not open to new things.

As Dontella said there is a thing called freedom of destiny, someone could walk in as a thing that is fifty different things, but as long as their personable, have good conversations, etc I could care less if my "image" is damaged sitting with them. For me it's crystal clear, I do not like hurting people. I would not like to imagine someone on another end of a computer crying (Yes I have had talks with people who have done this) because people will not speak to their characters when all they want to do is make long time friends IC and OOC. Listen, okay, I realize rules are rules when making someones character, I follow rules (some would debate that) but it is a game, if someone else just wants to make a farmer who is a psionic monkey when the flowers bloom more power to them because it's something that makes them happy. Something I would never wish to take away from another person.

I'm lucky, been around a while, seen alot of things, but I have been lucky in the respect that I have made friends OOC that I hope will last a lifetime all because of a free form rping room somewhere on the internet.

Lighten up.

 

[Tharivious_Meliamne]

This is a subject that has been beaten to a pulp in the past, present and will continue on in the future.

If you take how things go in the tavern in account it is logical to expect most if not all people to ignore a new 'odd' character. Why is that? Simply because most of the time if you acknowledge any type of character you are going to end up having to hear some boring life story that your character most likely won't give a rat's arse about. With most of the 'odd' characters these life stories are so far fetched it makes many players just want to puke. Is that using ooc knowledge ic? Maybe.....that is if you haven't had a character see that very same thing over and over again.

Again, that depends on the characters involved. Some are more social than others, and some will be more reclusive. And while some characters ramble about their life stories, just as many don't. As said many times above, I don't expect all characters to begin glancing at every single being that walks into the room, regardless of type. As for the OOC/IC paradigm presented here, it once more depends on the individual characters involved, which does naturally have an impact on logic.

Personally I rarely talk to the 'odd' creatures. I play characters that are bigotted towards 'odd' creatures like those template creatures that run amuck. Now I do have Fen and one of my other characters talk to the 'odd' creatures but they are special cases. Meaning they have seen alot more than my other characters and are more willing to give someone a chance. Now that don't mean Fen won't bad mouth someone the first time they do something he don't agree with either.

Bigotted characters are certainly a good thing. It provides depth and interest to the roleplaying and opportunities to bring that side of them forward. Even if they don't go out and begin persecuting the 'odd' creatures, it actually makes it slightly more logical for them to notice their prescence, being something despised. Generally speaking, many people I've known are more likely to notice something that they have an extreme dislike for than they are to notice something that they appreciate.

Alot of players on this site are just sick and tired of the 'odd' characters. Like it was mentioned already, how would these characters get to the tavern in the first place without being lynched? Even I play a drow but let's use them as an example. The Greyhawk drow make the FR drow look like boy and girl scouts. If the citizens see them coming they are either going to wet their pants or try to get a group together and slaughter them, most likely both heh. Even in FR drow don't walk openly because they will be persecuted regardless unless they have the name of Drizzt and even he can't just walk into a small town without some problem unless they already know him there and still he has some problems.

How do they get there? As has been mentioned earlier, teleportation to the doorway is one possibility, and many of them wear cloaks to hide their identities, use invisibility spells to get there, etc. In a world where spells are available, enhanced means of travel are available.

As for the drow part, not touching that with a 10 ft pole. Not touching FR with a 10 ft pole either, because that's a whole different can of worms.

I personally will continue to go about as I do and for the most part ignore the 'odd' characters. That doesn't mean when I see them I put them on my iggie list but that I won't acknowledge their presence unless I am forced into it. In that case I will acknowledge them and remove myself from the situation. Now that doesn't mean every single time it is going to happen but the vast majority of the time it will. I know that many won't like that type of attitude but oh well. My outlook on that is at least I can be honest and not try to talk in circles when asked the reasons I do something which very few can do be truthful and say the same.

And again I say, fair enough. To each their own in terms of who they interact with, and I respect the honesty in saying that. However, I still consider it to be worth the time to suggest considering acknowledging others' prescences for more time than to get up and walk away from them.

Forgive me but I feel the need to go a tad off subject here so please bear with me.

Ahh, tangents, I see nothing wrong with them in the short term, so no problem.

I hear alot of people whining and complaining that they are called a snert or powergamer for playing characters with a base race that is powerful and adding a couple of templates to it. Now let's look that that. A power gamer is a person that chooses to play characters that when totalled up are very powerful compared to the 'norm'. I would have to put the powerbase of this site at over 20th lvl if you look at it from a D&D standpoint. If you play a character that is way over 20th lvl yes you are going to be labelled a powergamer by those that don't know you and maybe by those that know you behind your back. For the longest time players have been making the super powerful 'odd' characters by adding templates and magical items, psionics and all other kinds of idiotic stuff but whine and complain when people bad mouth them for it. If you go against the grain you are going to be ridiculed by both friends and strangers. That is a fact of life so suck it up and move on.

Fair enough. Sensible and well said point.

If you want people to acknowledge your characters a good rule of thumb is don't play drow with wings that are blade singers/clerics/order of the bow initiates/arcane archers/epic lvl ftrs or half dragon/vampire/half drow/were creatures or anything along those lines. Sound ridiculous? Well seen alot of those okay just one of the first type I think.

Also well said, and stacking up two dozen aspects onto a character is going overboard. However, I still consider even the more unusual characters to be worth acknowledging, regardless of what they are, if there is a chance for roleplaying. It is still within reason that such things would be noticed, even if they are somewhat/completely outlandish.

 

[Tharivious_Meliamne]

>snip< Logic isn't the grounds I'd use to prove it though, because, to be perfectly honest, logic just doesn't seem like a concideration when you take in everything that goes on in ISRP.

That does mean I don't try to make my characters as believable as possible, but when the guy on one side of me has is a seven hundred year-old human fighter/cleric/archmage who once dated the elven goddess of magic, and the guy on the other side is a vampire who used to be a lord in Baatar who used to be a celestial prince before that, I kinda think its hard to take any discussion of "logic" seriously.

That said, I'm not trying to argue this point, so much as I'm trying to argue that we shouldn't be arguing over it. (Ironic as that sounds)

The logic of certain aspects is always in question though. Some parts of logic do have to be altered for the fantasy setting because of the existance and non-existance of certain aspects of life. But by the same token, there are aspects of logic that do still pertain, such as being aware of your surroundings and of what enters them

Originally posted by Ethera de Lioncourt
I play things some have called stupid, boring, idiotic, and impossible. But those who judge some of my more "odd" characters honestly don't know the first thing about them and hear snipets while they talk to someone else. Take for example Miss Ethera, three different things she is, three things some people who have far too much time on their hands analyzing someone elses character said were impossible to make. But given the 16pg story (just her first 10yrs) on word I have done I would say I have more then enough reason for what she is, how and why. But no one ever asks. Let them think what they want, it's better that way. It sorts those who are kind and open from those who are unkind and not open to new things.

Thank you, that is what I was pointing out previously when I mentioned that there are plenty of good characters outside of the norm that are well thought out and smartly created. And with characters such as these around, it does provide hope for other 'unusual' beings to be accepted.

As Dontella said there is a thing called freedom of destiny, someone could walk in as a thing that is fifty different things, but as long as their personable, have good conversations, etc I could care less if my "image" is damaged sitting with them. For me it's crystal clear, I do not like hurting people. I would not like to imagine someone on another end of a computer crying (Yes I have had talks with people who have done this) because people will not speak to their characters when all they want to do is make long time friends IC and OOC. Listen, okay, I realize rules are rules when making someones character, I follow rules (some would debate that) but it is a game, if someone else just wants to make a farmer who is a psionic monkey when the flowers bloom more power to them because it's something that makes them happy. Something I would never wish to take away from another person.

While I personally haven't spoken with anyone with such a strong reaction to not being noticed, that is along the lines of what I meant when speaking of others who get lost in the shuffle. That is also absolutely to the point I had intended in acknowledging others, even just a glance can give someone a bit of confidence in what they are doing, even if the glancing player doesn't make any further interaction with them.

And I absolutely agree that each player should be able to play something that makes them happy, no matter what it is. Personally, I dislike paladins, always have, always will, does that mean that I would exclude a paladin character from being able to interact with mine? Not hardly. Even my characters who share this dislike of paladins have interacted with them to great effect in days past.

I'm lucky, been around a while, seen alot of things, but I have been lucky in the respect that I have made friends OOC that I hope will last a lifetime all because of a free form rping room somewhere on the internet.

That is good to hear, and that is definately one of the other upsides to this site.

 

[Jardel_Karabella]

Roleplaying isn't just about sitting in your circle of people and choosing to acknowledge who you want to, it's about bringing others into it and interacting with your surroundings.

Wrong. Roleplaying is about playing a role. Whether you play it with a select group of friends or try to share it with as many people as possible is completely and utterly irrelevant. I think the word you might be looking for is community, and even then you're well off.

Look at any community in the world and you'll find self imposed segregations. Every major multicultural city in the world has it's own ethnic sub-communities and sub-communties of neighbourhoods within them. You have your own sub-communities of your friends within the region etc.

There is no rule anywhere that says you have to like everyone. You stay in a community because you like parts of it and you help those parts, if you don't like those parts or don't help then you leave the community. You are no more required to interact with everyone's characters than you are required to post on every forum to be a productive and active member of the community.

The reality of the freedom of creativity of the site is simple. You do what you have to in order to create and play a character you enjoy and I will do the same. If you happen to enjoy playing a blue haired, half-demon paladin of Tyr and want to play a human from a realistic world where there are no half-demons then we're going to have to agree to disagree and allow our characters to exist without pushing in on each other. ie we agree not to ppush our characters onto each other.

You can roleplaying with like characters and I will do the same, everyone's happy and nobody's required to do anything but what they wanted to do.

However, just because a character is semi-unique does not mean that they should be automatically written off from a roleplaying standpoint, but as you've stated several times already, this is not logic, this is interaction.

It has nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing to do with being different or semi-unique and entirely everything to do with meshing and matching other people's roleplaying values. To be honest I do not care whether your character is unique or rather standard issue, whether they have a novel of back history written or just a vague concept still forming in your mind. What I care about is can I RP with them without compromising my character and/or enjoyment?

For example:

I like to RP 2nd Edition, I like to include lots of tiny details and base everything my characters can do off realism and complicated logic. My characters are quite compatible with people who are similar in their styles, however they do not do so well with people who like high levels of suspended disbelief and to never let the logic get in the way of a cool event. Ergo I try to avoid such people since it minimises the conflict I'm likely to have with them.

Likewise there was a peroid when it seemed fashionable to have a dragon follow your character around. Given that most of my chars would flee a dragon on sight it gave me the options of (1) stop playing those characters or (2) don't acknowledge the dragons and try to avoid their masters/mistresses or (3) tell the owners to stop it so I could RP without having to avoid acknowledging them.

I chose option 2 and to be quite honest, I don't think most of them were even aware, much less cared, that I did. They were too busy roleplaying with the people who were like minded and had characters that didn't flee at the sight of a dragon.

Now, given all that, there is absolutely no reason anyone should expect their character's presence should get them anything from anyone. I've said it before, roleplaying is a performance art and part of the artist's challenge is to capture the attention of the audience.

Can we help with this? Certainly. But not by telling the audience "Hey! You should be paying more attention to me!".

 

[WizO_Adele]

Just an FYI, Freedom of Destiny is not part of the Code of Conduct. It's simply an in character rule (originally aimed at circumstances like kidnapping and cohersion where a character might want to press in character charges) that has been used to explain philosophies of good role-playing on several levels.

The aspects of FoD that would overlap with the CoC, would be under harassment. Involving another character in a storyline or engaging their attention when *they have asked to be excluded* can be construed as harassment.

I'm firing a warning shot off on this topic. Let's try and be civil guys; while at the same time recognizing that we have the right to disagree with someone and even view things in a negative fashion. It's how we present that that counts. We all need thicker skins too.

And I'm getting a headache with all the quoting going on here. What happened to responding to everyone in one post?