• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Something Awful leak.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Henry

Autoexreginated
I dunno, given that what it's supposed to be is a very early Alpha version, it's entirely possible that those sorts of mistakes might be present. Alpha is Alpha after all.

I've never understood why some people take closed playtest info as gospel and assume that's anywhere NEAR what the final product will look like. A great quote from Dave Noonan back at his tenure at WotC is: "Never ask a game designer what a certain rule is from memory, because in his head are The Correct Rule, an Incorrect Rule, and Rules that Should Not Be." :)

Some people may just not realize how many changes rules for a brand new game or system can really go through. Ask the gents at Order 66 about their game of Edition Wars -- I'm willing to bet their design of a simple board/card game probably went through some pretty wild iterations before they got the balance straight.

Heck, the framers of the American Constitution had their sessions closed-door because they knew that if their constituents caught wind that they were totally revising the Articles of Confederation instead of just making patches, they'd be tarred and feathered. :)
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Thorpe

First Post
Couldn't the "boring" fighter be rather easily transformed by feats that did some of the following:
If you hit by 5 or more: push the enemy 15 feet, or knock prone, or the attacker shifts 10 feet ,or enervate(whatever that is ) the enemy maybe weaken or slow for the guardian or bonus damage for the slayer.
If you hit by 10 or more: repeat the attack on the same target or deal the same damage to a second adjacent foe or stun the target (maybe with a save chance) or charge another target ect.
The hit plus five could trigger as much as fifty percent of the time with combat advantage the hit plus 10 twenty five percent. These would make a fighter plenty dangerous especially against foes he hits easily. Seems maybe more exciting than "I use my level 3 encounter power".
 

FireLance

Legend
Incidentally, since I like math and naturally gravitate to examining the math behind a system, I ought to add that the comment that the fighter's extra attacks at -5 (for the archer and two-weapon style) are going to be useless seems to be based on the assumption that the base hit rate is about 50%. That gives the secondary attack a base hit rate of around 25%. However, if a fighter's base hit rate is closer to 65% or 70%, then we're looking at a base hit rate of 40% or 45% for the secondary attack. Not too shabby, in my view, and there may be feats or other character customization options that allow you to reduce the penalty for the second attack.
 

catastrophic

First Post
And to hit your point, Catastrophic, I think they've promised 4e-style rules modules. I'll be fascinated and excited to see those go into place.
It is not possible to talk about 5e unless we can also talk about the previous games, games who's fans the developers have clearly stated they seek to include in it.

It is vital to be able to contrast those systems, and their qualities, when the stated goal of the developers is to make a system which supports play as represented by various editions.

If 5e doesn't give fans of 4e, or 3e, or 1e what they want, including in contrast to other editions, then it's not fulfilling one of it's core design goals. And if discussions of the system are to be fruitful, they must be able to discuss those contrasts, as well, despite the bad history of such discussions.

It is impossible to discuss the new system otherwise, considering it's key goals.

Likewise, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, you can't just plonk all the bits of one edition or another in some hypothetical module or later version- the game on all levels must be built to handle those modules, even when the modules are not in use.

Pursuant to this, having read it, and since i'm not under NDA (and unlikely to ever be so since i'm genuinly critical of the process), I do not feel that 1.0 shows any signs of a genuine 'modular' system, or one which 4e-style modules in particular could be plugged in to. Nor is the early stage of the development an excuse for this- on the contrary, such components or foundations should be the very first thing laid down in design, if such an ambitious goal is to be realized.

To design a game which offers such a feature, you have to have that in mind from day one, to be sure that you don't design another part of the game which clashes with it. You have to have the modular system clearly laid out at least in test form, so you can check it against new work.

For instance, when making a spell which involves movement, the 5e devs have to be able to ask themselves "How does this new kind of movement relate to how we are managing the difference between combat on a battle map, and combat without a map? Does it translate between the two in a way comparable to the way other movement modes translate? Or will it act very differently between the two modules?"

Instead, in 1.0 we have. . . everything that used to be in squares, is in feet instead. That's it. That's all they've got to build the 'tactical combat' module on. To say nothing of people who might have hoped for a better take on mapless combat (using something like FATE style zones, for instance). And again, other options would also need support. They'd need something to plug into.

That is what 'modular' means, after all. You have to have the sockets and plugs in place in the base design, so you can plug bits into them. And, much like a hard-point on the wing of a jet fighter where a missile is mounted, the structure has to be built to handle the extra weight, for when it's in place. You can't just pile a bunch of extra rules on, you need to be able to give the GM a functional workload, regardless of the complexity level.

Those plugs don't exist in 1.0. There are no hard points. Seemingly no effort is being made to manage complexity at various levels, if the fluctuation in complexity in this example is anything to go by.

There's just a bunch of 'fantasy roleplaying game' with very little genuine oversight displayed. Certainly, there's no sign of the kind of core mechanic or mechanics which would allow variations in say, wether combat takes place on a battle map, or what a fighter does apart from dealing damage (or how it is that this old school fighter is somehow also a newbie-friendly fighter). You can't just 'add a feat' or 'change a rule', you need to figure out how those module-feats compare to others, and how changing a rule impacts other systems.

And yes, I get that some people don't care about things like that, or disagree with the assertion i'd make of how much fun it ruins when rules implode or neglect a key class because of design issues of this sort. But again, as a fan of 4e amongst other games, I do not feel that this is a promising development, and since wotc has stated a clear goal of including people like me in the game, that makes this a problem.

At best, if such module-friendly design is present, it's very deeply buried and disguised- but that would also damage it, since DMs using such a system would have to understand it, in order to make it work.

People will make a bunch of excuses. As i've said, these excuses will define the discussions over 5e, clearly. Apparently the initial test version of a game has nothing to do with the game? It's just kinda. . what, a coincidence? There to test the font? That's the conventional wisdom apparently?

Hogwash. This isn't internal playtesting. This is something they are taking to conventions.

A playtest is not an excuse to just throw some stuff together and hurl it at people, like some kind of developmental reading of entrails. It is meant to test and iterate the design.

If 1.0 doesn't have those features, then the whole process will involve playing catch-up and never really locking such features down.

Where's the design? Where's the edition fan inclusion? Where's the modular system? It's not in 1.0. And it should be.
 
Last edited:

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Sure it does. As soon as you reach the cap, you must put your +1s into other abilities.
You'd think so, but the leak-as-written (LAW? Please, no!) says it goes into your prime stat, period.

Lan-"I don't understand why playtesters are NDAed when it's supposedly an open playtest"-efan
 

I have almost no opinion on any of this because all of it is just babbling exchanges of terms and references that make my eyes glaze over and head spin. I just don't know what to think. I remember being fairly involved and reasonably excited about all the changes being made for 3rd Edition. It was curious, however, that when I actually got my hands on the books my eyes glazed over and my head spun. The actual product was so much more... I dunno... dense. There was SO MUCH new information to absorb beyond the little details that had been dripped slowly over the preceding months. It took me several readings of the whole thing and a number of actual game sessions before I started to feel like I really had a proper grasp of the whole thing.

The release of 4E was somewhat different for me. The details that I'd been hearing just did not excite me and I was quite trepiditious about the whole affair. So then when I bought the actual product and read the books... my eyes glazed over and my head spun. That time around I decided that it wasn't for me - at least not to run, and I'd still personally prefer 1, 2, or 3 before 4.

So now I read some things that sound good, some things that sound not so exciting, but I'm quite sure that when I finally get my hands on the books and read them my eyes will still glaze over and my head will spin trying to absorb the HUNDREDS of pages of rules that will comprise it. I'll still be reading a lot of the debate but I put no more stock in anyone elses ability to prognosticate the ultimate pass or fail based on such thin information as we will have up until we actually have books in hand.

But that's probably just me.
 


n00bdragon

First Post
It is not possible to talk about 5e unless we can also talk about the previous games, games who's fans the developers have clearly stated they seek to include in it.

It is vital to be able to contrast those systems, and their qualities, when the stated goal of the developers is to make a system which supports play as represented by various editions.

If 5e doesn't give fans of 4e, or 3e, or 1e what they want, including in contrast to other editions, then it's not fulfilling one of it's core design goals. And if discussions of the system are to be fruitful, they must be able to discuss those contrasts, as well, despite the bad history of such discussions.

It is impossible to discuss the new system otherwise, considering it's key goals.

Likewise, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, you can't just plonk all the bits of one edition or another in some hypothetical module or later version- the game on all levels must be built to handle those modules, even when the modules are not in use.

Pursuant to this, having read it, and since i'm not under NDA (and unlikely to ever be so since i'm genuinly critical of the process), I do not feel that 1.0 shows any signs of a genuine 'modular' system, or one which 4e-style modules in particular could be plugged in to. Nor is the early stage of the development an excuse for this- on the contrary, such components or foundations should be the very first thing laid down in design, if such an ambitious goal is to be realized.

To design a game which offers such a feature, you have to have that in mind from day one, to be sure that you don't design another part of the game which clashes with it. You have to have the modular system clearly laid out at least in test form, so you can check it against new work.

For instance, when making a spell which involves movement, the 5e devs have to be able to ask themselves "How does this new kind of movement relate to how we are managing the difference between combat on a battle map, and combat without a map? Does it translate between the two in a way comparable to the way other movement modes translate? Or will it act very differently between the two modules?"

Instead, in 1.0 we have. . . everything that used to be in squares, is in feet instead. That's it. That's all they've got to build the 'tactical combat' module on. To say nothing of people who might have hoped for a better take on mapless combat (using something like FATE style zones, for instance). And again, other options would also need support. They'd need something to plug into.

That is what 'modular' means, after all. You have to have the sockets and plugs in place in the base design, so you can plug bits into them. And, much like a hard-point on the wing of a jet fighter where a missile is mounted, the structure has to be built to handle the extra weight, for when it's in place. You can't just pile a bunch of extra rules on, you need to be able to give the GM a functional workload, regardless of the complexity level.

Those plugs don't exist in 1.0. There are no hard points. Seemingly no effort is being made to manage complexity at various levels, if the fluctuation in complexity in this example is anything to go by.

There's just a bunch of 'fantasy roleplaying game' with very little genuine oversight displayed. Certainly, there's no sign of the kind of core mechanic or mechanics which would allow variations in say, wether combat takes place on a battle map, or what a fighter does apart from dealing damage (or how it is that this old school fighter is somehow also a newbie-friendly fighter). You can't just 'add a feat' or 'change a rule', you need to figure out how those module-feats compare to others, and how changing a rule impacts other systems.

And yes, I get that some people don't care about things like that, or disagree with the assertion i'd make of how much fun it ruins when rules implode or neglect a key class because of design issues of this sort. But again, as a fan of 4e amongst other games, I do not feel that this is a promising development, and since wotc has stated a clear goal of including people like me in the game, that makes this a problem.

At best, if such module-friendly design is present, it's very deeply buried and disguised- but that would also damage it, since DMs using such a system would have to understand it, in order to make it work.

People will make a bunch of excuses. As i've said, these excuses will define the discussions over 5e, clearly. Apparently the initial test version of a game has nothing to do with the game? It's just kinda. . what, a coincidence? There to test the font? That's the conventional wisdom apparently?

Hogwash. This isn't internal playtesting. This is something they are taking to conventions.

A playtest is not an excuse to just throw some stuff together and hurl it at people, like some kind of developmental reading of entrails. It is meant to test and iterate the design.

If 1.0 doesn't have those features, then the whole process will involve playing catch-up and never really locking such features down.

Where's the design? Where's the edition fan inclusion? Where's the modular system? It's not in 1.0. And it should be.



I already gave you experience so I can't +1 you again for a while but you deserve it. Here's +2.

QFE
 

am181d

Adventurer
To design a game which offers such a feature, you have to have that in mind from day one, to be sure that you don't design another part of the game which clashes with it. You have to have the modular system clearly laid out at least in test form, so you can check it against new work.

For instance, when making a spell which involves movement, the 5e devs have to be able to ask themselves "How does this new kind of movement relate to how we are managing the difference between combat on a battle map, and combat without a map? Does it translate between the two in a way comparable to the way other movement modes translate? Or will it act very differently between the two modules?"

Instead, in 1.0 we have. . . everything that used to be in squares, is in feet instead. That's it. That's all they've got to build the 'tactical combat' module on. To say nothing of people who might have hoped for a better take on mapless combat (using something like FATE style zones, for instance). And again, other options would also need support. They'd need something to plug into.

That sounds backwards to me: If they have a tactical combat module, that's where the rules for tactical combat will live. If there ARE other options, they should by definition NOT be supported by the core rules. They should be supported *in* the modules.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Back during the 3e era, I seem to recall someone posting an idea about turning the 9 spell levels into 20, allowing spells that were "a bit too good for their level" to be placed in a slightly higher tier.
Yeah pretty much like that! I figure there are enough design challenges around having 20 levels, why not actually make them work to their advantage in this instance? But I wonder how much the "max spell level is half level rounded down" spell tables for mages is a sacred cow?
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top