Something Awful leak.

[KarinsDad]

I dunno, given that what it's supposed to be is a very early Alpha version, it's entirely possible that those sorts of mistakes might be present. Alpha is Alpha after all.

This isn't even close to an Alpha. You won't see an Alpha for another year. At the moment, they'll still just playing around with the design.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

That sounds backwards to me: If they have a tactical combat module, that's where the rules for tactical combat will live. If there ARE other options, they should by definition NOT be supported by the core rules. They should be supported *in* the modules.

That isn't the issue. The issue is whether the core rules allow for modular rules to be comfortably slotted in with no issues, or whether modular rules are a clunky tacked on system that doesn't mesh with the core rules. 3E had a lot of options that fit that description, for example.

 

[catastrophic]

That sounds backwards to me: If they have a tactical combat module, that's where the rules for tactical combat will live. If there ARE other options, they should by definition NOT be supported by the core rules. They should be supported *in* the modules.

You're missing the point. The basic game needs to be built to take these modules and use them.

You can't just pile rules on top of each other, the base game does need to support the other, modular content, if the developers are serious about making those modules, and various combinations of modules, viable.

If a class is to be expanded by a module, then the base class needs to not only be balanced against the add-on version of the class, but the base class also needs a structure which allows people playing the class to easily upgrade it to the module version if they choose to.

And there are second-order interactions. If the class has feats in the base game, how do those feats relate to the more complex-module version of the class? Are they worthless for it? Do they have unintended effects?

Not only that, but even if the balance and design is up to snuff, the system needs to be somewhat transparent, at least clear enough with the rules, that players and DMs considering such a change can understand better what it means and what it's result is likely to be.

I get that some people don't care about this stuff, or disagree, but as a fan of 4e and other similar games, if they genuinly want me as a customer, then these are the kinds of things they need to do. Otherwise, they're not offering the product they advertised, because I'm not in some tiny minority of 4e players, here.

This isn't even close to an Alpha. You won't see an Alpha for another year. At the moment, they'll still just playing around with the design.

So they're publicly announcing, and releasing to bloggers and conventions, a pre-alpha build of their game?

 

[pauljathome]

That's an interesting take. The 4E people are seeing things they hated in 3E, while the 3E people are seeing little of what they liked about it.

The good news is that 5th edition WILL unite all (or almost all) D&D players

The bad news is that they'll be united in their hate/dislike/disinterest of 5th edition.

Probably about 1/2 a smiley on that. I think its actually a real risk.

 

[Libramarian]

It is vital to be able to contrast those systems, and their qualities, when the stated goal of the developers is to make a system which supports play as represented by various editions.

This is what is called marketing, not a core design goal.

The real core design goal is subtly but importantly different: they're going to support the "feel" of all editions. Which they've determined themselves by playing a few sessions of each.

Which really means the same thing as their core design goal every new edition:

make the Best Damn Game EVER.

 

[pauljathome]

This isn't even close to an Alpha. You won't see an Alpha for another year. At the moment, they'll still just playing around with the design.

One of the really key questions is when they're planning on releasing this puppy.

Their 4th edition sales HAVE to be affected to some extent. I don't know to what extent, of course. It may be coincidence but a WHOLE bunch of 4th edition stuff (modules, rules, etc) has shown up in the local remainder store (BMV for those living in or near Toronto. The one at Bloor and Spadina has lots of cheap 4th edition stuff available).

I'm personally betting on Gencon next year (although I would NOT put high odds on that). If that is right then there is less than a year to nail the game down given WOTC's print lead time. In which case the current version pretty much IS Alpha.

 

[KarinsDad]

So they're publicly announcing, and releasing to bloggers and conventions, a pre-alpha build of their game?

For all intents and purposes.

An Alpha release of any product typically means a product that is mostly there. In the case of an RPG, especially an RPG like 5E where they want to iron out differences between earlier editions, they don't have enough internal testers and enough of a set of solid requirements to get them the product that they want.

So, they need to go out of house to gain the requirements knowledge that they need to build their product.

This silly leak is a joke. It is so far away from the final product because even WotC doesn't yet know where they want to go with their design. Why? Because they are breaking new ground where they have ideas on what they want, but have no idea how to get there. It's extremely difficult to put together a core game that appeals to a high percentage of their overall fan base. So, they are using these playtests and blogs to get the answers that they don't yet have.

And what's even more amusing is how seriously the D&D community is taking this leak. This leak isn't even past level 3 for most things. How can anyone seriously consider that an Alpha? If there is a leak in 6 months or 9 months, then yes, that would be something worth analyzing and commenting on. This leaked version? Meh. It's not worth the paper it's written on. They've probably changed 25% or more of it by now and will continue to do so.

I suspect that some core mechanical elements like ability score range, skills using ability scores, hit points, AC, weapon damage, etc. are fairly close to what they want, but there are still a few hundred pages of material beyond the core mechanics that has yet to be fleshed out and it will change a lot over the coming year.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Breaking new ground, seriously? Between this leak and everything else we've heard, 90% of 5E is based on retreading old ground.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I dunno, given that what it's supposed to be is a very early Alpha version, it's entirely possible that those sorts of mistakes might be present. Alpha is Alpha after all.

You could be right. I guess we'll find out once the NDAs are lifted. Until then, or until someone who has playtested it confirms this is legit, I'm not going to believe any of it.

 

[catastrophic]

For all intents and purposes.

Apart from the ones where they take it to conventions and playtest is beyond friends and family?

An Alpha release of any product typically means a product that is mostly there. In the case of an RPG, especially an RPG like 5E where they want to iron out differences between earlier editions, they don't have enough internal testers and enough of a set of solid requirements to get them the product that they want.

Ahh so, the logic is that if the product doesn't look any good, it can't possible be an alpha build.

Or, this is broadly the game as they envision it (less some text needing to be re-written and basic editing goofs like the turn undead thing), and it's just not a very good design WRT the stated goals.

So, they need to go out of house to gain the requirements knowledge that they need to build their product.

This silly leak is a joke. It is so far away from the final product because even WotC doesn't yet know where they want to go with their design. Why? Because they are breaking new ground where they have ideas on what they want, but have no idea how to get there. It's extremely difficult to put together a core game that appeals to a high percentage of their overall fan base. So, they are using these playtests and blogs to get the answers that they don't yet have.

How can you playtest when you don't have a game to test? What are they testing is everything is subject to change?

And where on earth do you get the idea that they're breaking new ground when everything we've seen, in the leak and outside of it, suggests the opposite?

And what's even more amusing is how seriously the D&D community is taking this leak. This leak isn't even past level 3 for most things. How can anyone seriously consider that an Alpha? If there is a leak in 6 months or 9 months, then yes, that would be something worth analyzing and commenting on. This leaked version? Meh. It's not worth the paper it's written on. They've probably changed 25% or more of it by now and will continue to do so.

Meh. Bleh. This is just a random set of things that have nothing to do with the final product.

Because that's how you test things. You start with something completly meaningless, that has nothing to do with your stated goal, and then you change everything.

I suspect that some core mechanical elements like ability score range, skills using ability scores, hit points, AC, weapon damage, etc. are fairly close to what they want, but there are still a few hundred pages of material beyond the core mechanics that has yet to be fleshed out and it will change a lot over the coming year.

So the fact that there are 7 defences is in? That's real?

The weapon damage is real even though they've done polls asking how many hit points would 'feel' right for a 1st level fighter?

The ability score setup is real, even though it's wierd curve and caps and dump stats-as-defences are one of the core concerns people have?

You guys can brush this off for the next year, and then when it launches, you'll come up with another excuse to defend it. There will always be another excuse.