D&D (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Neonchameleon]

Sure, but that gets back to the question.

What was wrong with a sorcerer being able to distant spell any spell to increase their range by +30 per level? If we can assume the sorcerer ability is fine, than that distance and applying it to cantrips is fine, but I see no reason it couldn't be applied by sorcerers to their metamagic to make it a viable choice.

Because there's a huge difference between adding 90ft to a spell with a 10ft range and adding 90ft to a 120ft range. Some spells are intended to be close range. A spell like Eldritch Blast that's already long range doesn't change much.

Picking an obvious case that would change drastically Teleport has a range of 10ft - and the caster and up to 8 willing creatures within range can be teleported. The current version Distant Spell on Teleport turns it into up to 8 willing creatures within 20ft - which is sometimes better but not a change in kind. If you were to use the +30ft/level range and have a 13th level caster cast Teleport it now has a range of 400ft. You basically just need line of sight to pull everyone out unless there's a whole lot of anti-teleport magic.

 

[Neonchameleon]

They still have EB, and the reason EB is so powerful, is exactly because they dont get full slots. They also refresh on Short Rest, so...yeah. Just add on 3 Melee attacks as well...

You have 3 EB attacks at level 11. Not being able to match EB made the Pact of the Blade a bad alternative.

Yes, and the Bard, which at least leans into the Social side thematically and traditionally. Warlock just gets it all as a perk of that being their cast err...melee stat? Right, so damn good looking I am a master swordsman...

"I sold my soul to the devil to be a master swordsman".

 

[Scribe]

"I sold my soul to the devil to be a master swordsman".

While also having the best cantrip.
While also casting at the highest level.
While also having social perks.

I mean you can like it, you can think its fine. No problem. I think its absolutely egregious design and mentioned it on the survey.

"Only 2 attacks Paladin/Barb? Yikes, wrong Patron boys."

At least Barbarians can retaliate for a '3rd attack', as a subclass feature?

 

[Remathilis]

As things are using the 2014 warlock Pact of the Blade is way behind Eldritch Blast and so is a trap option. Buffing bad options to the benchmark doesn't break the class.

But the three melee attacks don't come at the cost of anything. Big dragon coming at you? Nuke it with your best spell. Still up? Go to town in melee with it. Took to the air? Switch to eldritch blast and lose no DPS. Finally dead? Take an hour nap and do it all again. The warlock protagonist and his band of minions.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I am. But the point is that you're applying the warlock and the sorcerer changes at different times - so the complexity overhead is different. I'm not saying that it needs to be different - but I am saying that there are reasons to make the warlock version slightly fiddlier than the sorcerer one.

Not that I really care about this.

I still don't see the difference in the overhead. It is the same calculation, you just are applying it to more things.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because there's a huge difference between adding 90ft to a spell with a 10ft range and adding 90ft to a 120ft range. Some spells are intended to be close range. A spell like Eldritch Blast that's already long range doesn't change much.

Picking an obvious case that would change drastically Teleport has a range of 10ft - and the caster and up to 8 willing creatures within range can be teleported. The current version Distant Spell on Teleport turns it into up to 8 willing creatures within 20ft - which is sometimes better but not a change in kind. If you were to use the +30ft/level range and have a 13th level caster cast Teleport it now has a range of 400ft. You basically just need line of sight to pull everyone out unless there's a whole lot of anti-teleport magic.

Okay.

Why is it bad that the Sorcerer can teleport all their allies within 400 ft in a single action? Like, isn't the ENTIRE point of metamagic to allow the sorcerer to break the rules of magic to make up for having a worst spell list than the wizard and fewer spells known than the wizard and less access to ritual magic than the wizard?

I think all you have done here is lay out the reason why the old version was GOOD. Because it at least gave some acknowledgement to the entire concept of metamagic.

And, don't forget, Eldritch Spear is no longer just Eldritch Blast. The Warlock can add +90 ft to a Poison Spray, for example, which was also designed to be a close range spell and not a long range spell.

 

[Stalker0]

lets get the warlock talk out of this thread, there are two other warlocks threads discussing that.

My issue with the updated distant spell was honestly my same problem with the old eldritch spear, to me those ranges should not exist in the game except for extreme cases (like meteor swarm, a 9th level spell).

When you have 250/300 foot ranges, either:

• you never have fights at those ranges, so its a pointless ability.
• your the only one that can fight at those ranges, and so its a snoozefest fight where every round the rest of the party twiddles thumbs while you add up all the damage you did over 3 rounds of attacks where the enemy couldn't close in time and just died.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Well, I think its egregious that the class that was 'balanced' before, has been buffed to have 3 Melee attacks. This minor tangent however is based on the fact other changes were made into how calculations are applied, yet a different one was applied to the Warlock. Its a few posts back.

Yeah ngl but I feel three melee attacks is far too powerful. Especially when combined with lifedrinker and eldritch smite.

But honestly, this is a perfect demonstration of martial-caster disparity. Bladelock is a joke next to caster+EBlock. But if you buff bladelock up to where it's balanced with caster warlock, then all of a sudden it's way better than any martial.

 

[Chaosmancer]

lets get the warlock talk out of this thread, there are two other warlocks threads discussing that.

My issue with the updated distant spell was honestly my same problem with the old eldritch spear, to me those ranges should not exist in the game except for extreme cases (like meteor swarm, a 9th level spell).

When you have 250/300 foot ranges, either:

• you never have fights at those ranges, so its a pointless ability.
• your the only one that can fight at those ranges, and so its a snoozefest fight where every round the rest of the party twiddles thumbs while you add up all the damage you did over 3 rounds of attacks where the enemy couldn't close in time and just died.

I will agree it is rare to "fight" at those ranges. Though I will also point out that Longbow+Sharpshooter exists, as do creatures with mobility in the 120 ft range.

I also don't see Distant spell as being used in a "snoozefest" fight. If an enemy is charging you from 300 ft away, I don't see most sorcerers burning 3 points and three spells to blast them while they close. What I actually see as more likely is an enemy fleeing, and a sorcerer using this for a hail mary. Like a bandit who grabs a horse which dashes away. They are now 150 ft away, and out of range, except the sorcerer can now cast something like Mind Spike on them. With a range of 60, it only doubles to 120 which isn't far enough. But if you can hit them, it also reveals their exact location as long as you concentrate. So, you can follow them after they escape.


These "one-off" situations where you normally don't have any options because the range is suddenly extreme, but where distant spell with a 30xlevel could actually shine and reward a player who wanted to go for that metamagic instead of one of the other, traditional, options.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Okay.

Why is it bad that the Sorcerer can teleport all their allies within 400 ft in a single action?

The problem is the cost. The dlfference between teleporting all allies within 10ft and those in 400ft is massive and far more of an upgrade than adding 390ft to a cantrip with an already 120ft range.

Could an appropriately costed metamagic work? Yes - but this metamagic needs to be based on the base spell range.

And, don't forget, Eldritch Spear is no longer just Eldritch Blast. The Warlock can add +90 ft to a Poison Spray, for example, which was also designed to be a close range spell and not a long range spell.

But we all know why that's simply a bad choice.